The International Olympiad in Injustice
Today is the day I became radicalized in my Jewish and Zionist identities.
Uhhh, you thought that had already happened? Like maybe in the aftermath of October 7, or well before then? Hahahaha no. You haven’t seen nothin’ yet.
See, a couple days ago, I was consoling myself on Facebook that, even as the arts and humanities and helping professions appeared to have fully descended into 1930s-style antisemitism, with “Zionists” (i.e., almost all Jews) now regularly getting disinvited from conferences and panels, singled out for condemnation by their teachers, placed on professional blacklists, etc. etc.—still, at least we in math, CS, and physics have mostly resisted these insanities. This was my way of trying to contain the damage. Sure, I told myself, all sorts of walks of life that had long been loony got even loonier, but at least it won’t directly affect me, here in my little bubble of polynomial-time algorithms and lemmas and chalk and LaTeX and collegiality and sanity.
So immediately afterward, as if overhearing, the International Olympiad on Informatics announced that, by a vote of more than two-thirds of its delegates, it’s banning the State of Israel from future competition. For context, the IOI is the world’s main high-school programming contest. I once dreamed of competing in the IOI, but then I left high school at age 15, which is totally the reason why I didn’t make it. Incredibly, despite its tiny size, Israel placed #2 in this month’s contest, which was held in Egypt. (The Israeli teenagers had to compete remotely, since Egypt could not guarantee their safety.)
Anyway, apparently the argument that carried the day at IOI was that, since Russia had previously been banned, it was only fair to ban Israel too. Is it even worth pointing out that Russia launched a war of conquest and annihilation against a neighbor, while Israel has been defending itself from such a war launched by its neighbors? I.e., that Israel is the “Ukraine” here, not the “Russia”? Do you even have to ask whether Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or China were also banned? Will it change anyone’s mind that, if we read Israel’s enemies in their own words—as I do, every day—they constantly tell us that, in their view, Israel’s fundamental “aggression” was not building settlements or demolishing houses or rigging pagers, but simply existing? (“We don’t want no two states!,” they explain. “We want all of ’48,” they explain.)
Surely, then, the anti-Zionists, the ones who rush to assure us they’re definitely not antisemites, must have some plan for what will happen to half the world’s remaining Jews after the little Zionist lifeboat is gone, after the new river-to-the-sea state of Palestine has expelled the hated settler-colonialists? Surely the plan won’t just be to ship the Jews back to the countries that murdered or expelled their grandparents, most of which have never offered to take them back? Surely the plan won’t be the same plan from last time—i.e., the plan that the Palestinian leadership enthusiastically supported the last time, the plan that it yearned to bring to Tel Aviv and Haifa, the plan called (where it was successfully carried out) by such euphemisms as Umsiedlung nach dem Osten and Endlösung der Judenfrage?
I feel like there must be sane answers to these questions, because if there aren’t, then too many people around the globe have covered themselves in a kind of shame that I thought had died a generation before I was born. And, like, these are people who consider themselves the paragons of enlightened morality: weeping for the oppressed, marching for LGBTQ+, standing on the right side of history. They organize literary festivals and art shows and (god help me) even high-school programming contests. They couldn’t also be monsters full of hatred, could they? Even though, the last time the question was tested, they totally were?
Let me add, in fairness: four Israeli high-school students will still be suffered to compete in the IOI, “but only as individuals.” To my mind, then, the right play for those students is to show up next year, do as well as they did this year, and then disqualify themselves by raising an Israeli flag in front of the cameras. Let them honor the legacy of Israel’s Olympic athletes, who kept showing up to compete (and eventually, to win medals) even after the International Olympic Committee had made clear that it would not protect them from being massacred mid-event. Let them exemplify what Mark Twain famously said of “the Jew,” that “he has made a marvellous fight in this world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him.”
But why do I keep abusing your time with this, when you came to hear about quantum computing or AI safety? I’ll get back to those soon enough. But truthfully, if speaking clearly about the darkness now re-enveloping civilization demanded it, I’d willingly lose every single non-Jewish friend I had, and most of my Jewish friends too. I’d completely isolate myself academically, professionally, and socially. I’d give up 99% of the readership of this blog. Better that than to look in the mirror and see a coward, a careerist, a kapo.
I thank the fates or the Born Rule, then, that I won’t need to do any of that. I’ve lived my life surrounded by friends and colleagues from Alabama and Alaska, China and India, Brazil and Iran, of every race and religion and sexual orientation and programming indentation style. Some of my Gentile friends 300% support me on this issue. Most of the rest are willing to hear me out, which is enough for friendship. If I can call the IOI’s Judenboykott what it is while keeping more than half of my readers, colleagues, and friends—that’s not even much of a decision, is it?
Important Update (September 26): Jonathan Mosheiff, of Israeli’s IOI delegation, got in touch with me and gave me permission to share the document below, which in my view shows that the anti-Israel animus at IOI goes much deeper than I realized, and that the process taken to remove Israel was fundamentally corrupt and in violation of the IOI’s own promises. –SA
I served as the Israeli team leader at the International Olympiad in Informatics (IOI) from 2011 to 2015, and since then, I have maintained an unofficial advisory role to the team. Currently, I am an Assistant Professor in the Computer Science department at Ben-Gurion University.
There are two key issues that need to be addressed:
Israel’s Participation in IOI 2024
At IOI 2023, the Israeli delegation was informed by the Egyptian delegation that Israel would not be able to attend IOI 2024 as an official delegation under the Israeli flag. Instead, Israel could participate under a neutral “IOI flag,” similar to how Russia participated in the 2021 Olympic Games in Tokyo. The Egyptians cited security concerns as the reason for this restriction, a claim that is highly questionable. The Israeli delegation inquired whether, after the IOI concluded, the official IOI scoreboard would reflect Israel’s representation under the Israeli flag rather than a neutral one. The Egyptian organizers responded that they would be unable to make this change, without providing any justification. This clearly undermines the credibility of their security-related reasoning.
In March 2024, Ben Burton, the IOI President from Australia, officially notified Israel that it would not be invited to participate in IOI 2024, not even under a neutral flag. This decision directly contravenes IOI rules, which mandate that the host nation must invite all IOI member countries. It’s important to differentiate between two scenarios: In some cases, a host country may invite another nation, but that nation cannot attend due to visa issues. However, this was not the situation here. Egypt did not issue Israel a letter of invitation and ignored Israel’s attempts at communication. To my knowledge, this is only the second instance in IOI history where a host nation failed to invite another nation—the first being Iran’s refusal to invite Israel when it hosted IOI 2017.
The IOI International Committee (the executive branch of the IOI) has not provided any explanation as to how the host nation could be allowed to act in this manner. They did propose a solution where Israel would participate remotely. Along with Israel, Iran also had to participate remotely due to visa issues, as did one German contestant. However, the treatment of Iran and Israel was vastly different. Iranian contestants (and the one German contestant) were acknowledged in all official on-site IOI publications and were recognized at both the opening and closing ceremonies. In contrast, Israel was completely ignored and went unrecognized throughout IOI 2024. The Israeli contestants were only “retroactively added” to the competition by the International Committee after IOI 2024 had concluded. Even now, our contestants cannot obtain official placement certificates, as the host nation deleted them from the competition servers. As far as I am aware, no other country in IOI history has been treated this way.
The Vote to Sanction Israel
In March 2024, the IOI President issued a brief statement indicating that there were requests to sanction Israel and that an email would be sent to all participating nations to gather their opinions. On August 3rd, 2024, a second email was sent, requesting that opinions be submitted directly to the International Committee rather than through a public discussion. In this email, Israel was already being compared to Russia. Israel submitted a position letter and requested that it be shared with all member nations, but the International Committee declined to disseminate Israel’s position. The IOI President assured Israel that, should a vote on sanctions be held during IOI 2024, Israel would be allowed to participate in the discussion remotely and have its voice heard. On August 16th, the International Committee announced that such a vote would indeed take place, and that Israel would be included in both the discussion and the vote.
IOI 2024 began on September 1st, 2024. At that time, the Israeli delegation was informed that they would not be allowed to participate in the discussion, even remotely. Israel was permitted to submit a written statement, which would be made available for all team leaders to download, but it was never read aloud during any discussions. The reason given was that Israel had been effectively erased from IOI 2024 by the hosts, and the International Committee acquiesced to this. Meanwhile, the Egyptian and Palestinian delegations were actively lobbying for votes throughout the week of IOI 2024. The discussion and vote on sanctions took place on the final day of IOI 2024 during a meeting of the General Assembly (the legislative branch of the IOI, where each nation has one vote). Israel was not even permitted to listen to the discussion (our leaders managed to hear it only because a sympathetic team leader unofficially opened a Zoom channel for them), let alone speak. The discussion itself was problematic in many ways. For instance, it grouped Israel together with Russia and Belarus. Ultimately, a majority voted to sanction Israel, along with Russia and Belarus, which had already been sanctioned previously.
Follow
Comment #1 September 26th, 2024 at 1:01 am
Just after I posted, I happened to read this, in a similar vein, by the actress Noa Tishby:
The antisemitism that was festering under the surface for decades, has exploded. And for those of us who stand against it, we are not the popular kids. The so called “cool kids” are wearing a keffiyeh, calling for an intifada and demanding a Palestine between the river and the sea even if they can’t tell you which river or which sea. Keffiyeh Karens. That’s the mainstream now.
Standing up against jihadism is now the counter-culture. Standing up for western democratic values against terror and extremism: that is now the counter-culture. Using facts and reason and knowing history: that is now the counter-culture. People! WE are the counterculture.
And we are doing it. The Jewish people have found our voice because standing up for what we believe in, even when it’s not popular, is part of who we are. Our tiny people haven’t survived for millennia and outlived every empire that tried to destroy us by always being the cool kids. In fact, we almost never are. We know when it’s time to swim against the tide because we know this playbook. We have been here before.
And our message to the world is as follows: the hatred that targets us is targeting you too.
I have a question for you, keffiyeh Karen from campus: where would you prefer to be a woman? in Iran? In Afghanistan? or in Israel? We cannot take the freedoms that we enjoy here in the US in Israel and in the west for granted, and right now even saying just that is swimming against the tide – it is being the counterculture.
This is not a war of Israel’s choosing but we cannot avoid it either. They might call us the chosen people: in fact we are the people with no choice.
But the entire western world needs to wake up to the fact that it has no choice either: that what is at stake is the survival, not just of the Jewish people, but of Western civilization, democracy and freedom itself.
And where we do have a choice is in how we do it: and we choose to speak the truth, even when the truth isn’t popular. To speak up, even when we are shouted down and to be proud even when they tell us we better hide.
Thank you so much, am Israel chai
Comment #2 September 26th, 2024 at 1:21 am
I don’t agree with this IOI “ban” against Israel, but, I think you’re being too extreme by calling this “antisemitism”. The IOI statement clearly states that the ban is in response to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, i.e. to the Israeli government and military causing suffering in Gaza beyond what the international majority deems necessary for self-defense. The IOI isn’t targeting Jews, and is specifically referring to the humanitarian problem rather than the political problem of Palestine. You’re conflating standard leftists (who want a ceasefire) with anti-Zionists (who want jews to leave israel, die, etc).
Comment #3 September 26th, 2024 at 1:24 am
Have you seen the current page about the “Nabka” in Wikipedia?
After the first two paragraphs, you will be convinced that evil Jews stormed a peaceful nation, killing and expelling the previously peaceful and thriving Palestinian civilization.
I urge you to do it, if you resist.
Comment #4 September 26th, 2024 at 1:50 am
The issue are double standards, and the idea that we have only one “right side of the history”.
Do you know that 8000 civilians in Donbass were killed by Ukranian bombing before Russia started invasion? From Russian perspective they are just defending their people.
If you think that Donbass is a part of Ukraine and borders of independent countries cannot be changed, just compare it with Kosovo. Why Kosovo has right to be independent and Donbass not? Double standards.
As world divides in interest areas it will just escalate and the victims will be students, sportsmans and others who doesnt have anything with politics.
Comment #5 September 26th, 2024 at 1:58 am
To be a bit of a devil’s advocate here, while there is definitely a rise in anti-Israeli sentiment, and a rise of antisemitism in general, the IOI does not ban Jews from other countries, or at least not yet, who knows what may happen down the road. They, as you said, do not even ban Jews from Israel, only the Israeli banner. Still terrible, but mostly a virtue signaling by “keffiyeh Karens from campus” than hating local Jews. My guess is that if there is a peace treaty between Israel and the Gaza and WB leadership some day soon, the anti-Israeli sentiment will dwindle away, starved of its “settlers bad, imperialism bad, support the oppressed” fuel. This may change and get entrenched if the war goes on and on, or if Israel occupies Gaza again and keeps pushing settlements in WB. So, really, the real villain is not the gullible Western Left, it is Netanyahu and his Palestinian counterparts who are at fault for all this.
Comment #6 September 26th, 2024 at 2:48 am
Thank you for writing this Scott.
You may want to look into Nakba-NLP 2025. You can see from their list of sources that they are not even trying to tell an unbiased story. In a few years, AI would be based on such databases and create a new generation of ignorant fools.
Comment #7 September 26th, 2024 at 4:43 am
I’m not a Jew. I’m not even a religious person, and I was not paying a lot of attention to the Middle East previously. But since October 7th, I’ve become a Zionist as well. Am Israel Chai!
Comment #8 September 26th, 2024 at 5:03 am
I think an important way of looking at this perhaps rests on the distinction you draw between Russia and Israel, namely that Israel is acting in self defence whereas Russia has launched an invasion. However, I think the reason so many ‘sane’ people are taking the anti-Israel stance is because of the belief that Israel has vastly overstepped what could reasonably be called self defence. To be clearer, Russia’s claimed goals are ‘demilitarization’ and ‘de-Nazification’ of Ukraine, which most of the Western world reads as untrue, or a cover for other aims. However, Israel’s claims that there are powerful entities in Palestine (and elsewhere) with the explicit goal of eradicating their county is indeed true, and frightening. But – and I believe you may agree with some of this, from your previous writing – Netanyahu’s plan to destroy this enemy, and not just defeat it, comes not only at an incredible human cost, but seems very unlikely to succeed in a meaningful way – and also seems to neatly align with a result of the expansion of Israel into Palestinian land. I think that if the Allied forces had not said that they wish to defeat the Nazis, but instead kill every Nazi in existence, this is very different to what could be called honorable warfare. It is possible (/likely) it may be said that this is an overly critical understanding of Israel’s tactics – but I do think this is where the disagreement lies.
That said, it also seems to me that you are reading this statement (and almost all other anti-Zionist statements) as equivalent to ‘Israel should not exist’, although maybe that is an unfair reading of this post. However, I see this much more as an action against Netanyahu’s government, not the existence of Israel itself (the argument about whether this is an appropriate action is somewhat different).
Comment #9 September 26th, 2024 at 6:27 am
“Surely the plan won’t just be to ship the Jews back to the countries that murdered or expelled their grandparents, and that have never offered to take them back?”
I know this is a side point and just a rhetorical flourish, but Germany has and still does offer to grant citizenship to anyone who has direct ancestors that had their German citizenship illegally revoked by the Nazis.
Comment #10 September 26th, 2024 at 6:50 am
Matt Leiter #9: Thanks, edited.
Comment #11 September 26th, 2024 at 7:10 am
Shem #2: The thing is, in order to believe this is narrowly about the humanitarian situation in Gaza, I would have to believe that what Israel has done in trying to fight Hamas is “worse” than (for example) what China has done to the Uyghurs, or for that matter, what Iran did in setting up Hamas and Hezbollah to start the war with Israel in the first place. Because China and Iran are still allowed to compete under their own flags; as far as I know, the question of whether they shouldn’t be allowed to never even came up.
So then we’re back to the same old questions: was Iran justified to start a war with Israel? Was Israel unjustified to pursue Hamas into its tunnels underneath the civilian population, which would surely produce many civilian casualties as Hamas intended it to? And I can’t help noticing that at least half of the people who answer “yes” to these questions, give as their ultimate reason that Israel should never have existed in the first place and should not exist now.
In which case, even to discuss the specifics of the current war is to concede too much. The ball should be firmly in the Israel-delegitimizers’ court, to answer the question: what would you do with these millions of Jews, who despite their #2 IOI performance mostly aren’t welcome anywhere else, other than “resettle them to the East” as the Germans put it?
Comment #12 September 26th, 2024 at 7:18 am
Your post brought tears to my eyes.
The IOI decision is, by definition, systemic antisemitism: a double standard, exercised by pathological historical animosity towards Jews or some of their representations (Israel).
In this case, it’s beyond double standard. In the 7th Oct War, Israel is the victim, factually, and without a doubt. It is exercising a fully legal and moral war of self-defense, which is some of the most *targeted* and legally-abiding urban-war ever conducted in history. Those who cry over “humanitarian crisis”, are simply dishonest actors who hide behind (easily verifiable) fake justifications (the IOI), in order to mislead and gaslight the naïve and clueless (some commenters here).
Comment #13 September 26th, 2024 at 7:31 am
#8 N:
“Netanyahu’s plan to destroy this enemy, and not just defeat it, comes not only at an incredible human cost, but seems very unlikely to succeed in a meaningful way – and also seems to neatly align with a result of the expansion of Israel into Palestinian land.”
Yeah, that is just factually incorrect. The Israeli government literally meant a defeat, and the defeat of Hamas means it is incapable of orchestrating terror acts, which means to completely disband this terror organization. This is clearly very likely to succeed, as is shown only recently in the similar case of ISIS. Your misunderstanding stems from not knowing that Hamas has around 10 battalions with around 40K combatants, which Israel is determined to destroy (unlike your mistaken example of “killing all Nazis” which was a political movement including 10s of millions).
The human cost is clearly aligned with international law and norms (1:1 combat to civilian casualty ratio). The number of casualties is not high in comparison to the ISIS war (about 1 million), and Ukraine/Russia (again, estimated 1 million), and the claim about “expansion” is clearly a fabrication (Israel literally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 demolishing all Jewish homes there).
Comment #14 September 26th, 2024 at 7:36 am
Shmi #5: That’s true, the IOI hasn’t literally banned Jews yet. I’d still feel deeply uncomfortable to compete there, given that the world’s only Jewish nation has been banned for defending its existence.
I hope you’re right that this will all die down once there’s a peace deal and/or a Gaza reconstruction plan and/or the ouster of Netanyahu. And of course, I fervently hope for all of those (correlated) events, none of which can happen soon enough for me.
But the world needs to understand that, if the Palestinians respond to their next opportunity to build a state as they’ve responded to all previous opportunities — namely, by launching a new phase of their glorious armed struggle against Israel — then Netanyahu or someone even worse than him is going to get voted right back in.
Comment #15 September 26th, 2024 at 8:15 am
#Ilija
No there were no 8000 civilians from ukr bombings. Actually, there were like 5 civilians died from all kind of warfare in a year before 2022 invasion. And of course, a bogus “claim for independence” haven’t ever been respected by Russia itself. It has just annexed the territory. Like Crimea. Like everything else it can reach.
Comment #16 September 26th, 2024 at 8:22 am
#13 Theorist Israel:
To clarify, I didn’t go into as much detail as perhaps I should because I wanted to outline what I believe would be the main reasons behind the decision of the IOI, and not necessarily to talk Scott (or anyone else) out of Zionism. But I will respond to this as far as I am able.
“The Israeli government literally meant a defeat, and the defeat of Hamas means it is incapable of orchestrating terror acts, which means to completely disband this terror organization.” I think this is quite fair in principle. I was thinking more of Ben Gvir et al. saying that all supporters of Hamas need to be eliminated; in fairness I think you’re completely right to say that this is not strictly what ‘destroy Hamas’ means, but I do think it’s an interpretation held by some portion of Israeli politicians. I’m not saying you (or Scott) agree with it, but I think that’s a driver in anti-Israeli sentiment.
“This is clearly very likely to succeed, as is shown only recently in the similar case of ISIS” – I strongly disagree with this statement. ISIS/ISIL are still active, and not only that, I believe the destabilization of this region will only foster the sort of environment which could lead to further extremism and terrorism. This isn’t to victim-blame Israel, but I believe that the mass destruction of Palestinian land (and safety) could well be a contributor to deepening hatred in the region.
“The human cost is clearly aligned with international law and norms”/”the claim about “expansion” is clearly a fabrication” – I think we have completely different understandings of the situation here, so it may be difficult to have a productive conversation, given how disparate our beliefs are. I agree that the withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 is meaningful and should not be overlooked, but this is not the complete extent of Israeli settlements that are considered illegal under international law.
Comment #17 September 26th, 2024 at 8:36 am
N #16: No disagreements with anything you wrote!
When the criticisms are sane and reasonable, so am I.
(Added: N.’s sane criticisms of the Israeli government are like the sane criticisms many of us have had of the governments of, e.g., the US, Brazil, or Poland. The difference is, no one argues that the US or Brazil or Poland should be banned from international competitions, as a step toward delegitimizing those countries’ entire existence.)
Comment #18 September 26th, 2024 at 9:04 am
N #16:
“– I strongly disagree with this statement. ISIS/ISIL are still active, and not only that, I believe the destabilization of this region will only foster the sort of environment which could lead to further extremism and terrorism. This isn’t to victim-blame Israel, but I believe that the mass destruction of Palestinian land (and safety) could well be a contributor to deepening hatred in the region.”
Thanks for your reply.
ISIS has de-facto been destroyed. That is what is expected to happen with Hamas.
Your other statement, is a different argument, which stems usually from the Western misconception of the Middle East and the non-Western world. Islamist terrorism, and Islamist-oriented terrorism, such as Palestinian terrorism, is typically reduced under pressure and despair, and thrives in a nurturing and comfortable environment. This is purely an observational finding. A recent poll indicates that most Gazans now view Hamas’ attack on October 7th as a mistake, whereas just a few months ago, the majority supported the massacre. If this poll is accurate, it undermines your argument.
__
Just to clarify my estimate of the casualty numbers in the ISIS war, I included the war in Syria as well. If we only look at the American-led war against ISIS, the casualty numbers is around 100,000, with many civilian casualties in non-targeted manner by the US (coincidentally, I’ve never heard of an attempt to ban the US from the IOI).
Comment #19 September 26th, 2024 at 9:20 am
#16: “Destroy Hamas”, means basically creating a world in which all former members of Hamas are dead, in prison, or trying very hard to pretend they were never part of Hamas. And as seen with e.g. the Nazis, that’s a perfectly reasonable thing to strive for, readily accomplished by non-genocidal means. We didn’t have to kill all or even most of the Nazis; once the ones still at large decide to pretend that they aren’t Nazis (because they know they’ll wind up in prison otherwise), they can’t run an organization like the NSDAP and so they’re not an immediate threat. And after a decade or so of pretending, they won’t be pretending any more.
There will always be a few edgelords in e.g. Illinois who go about wearing swastikas to prove how edgy they are. Doesn’t matter; the world has left them behind and we have other threats to worry about now. I assume there will always be a few edgelords who go about pretending that they are part of Hamas, or ISIS or Al Qaeda or whatever, and that also will be just a petty distraction. If they can’t organize anything more than a parade, they’re not the real deal.
Hamas delenda est; all else is commentary. And since the only ones actually willing to do that are the “Zionists”, I’ve been solidly on Team Zion since 10/7. Before that, I was more concerned with the abuses in the West Bank, and when Hamas is gone I’ll be taking a good look at how Israel is handling the reconstruction of Gaza. For now, Israel is taking the lead, and everyone else should be following or getting out of the way. The IOI, is doing the opposite of that, and so making the case that, yep, the world still needs Zionists to make sure there’s a safe space for the Jews because there’s nobody else who can be trusted on that.
Comment #20 September 26th, 2024 at 9:31 am
Thanks Scott for the post
Comment #21 September 26th, 2024 at 9:36 am
“But why do I keep abusing your time with this, when you came to hear about quantum computing or AI safety?“
First time commenter, on-and-off reader since grad school. I commented on Peter Woit’s blog the other day with something that may have tested the rules of his blog (minor trash talk about a QG proponent). He then posted a comment that definitely went beyond the lines drawn by my understanding of his blog’s rules. But whatever: his blog, his rules. And your blog, your rules.
It’s your candor that draws me back in anyway. AI safety aside, Quantum computing is wicked cool, but I’m a medical data scientist desperate for projects that couple his profession now and his profession from years ago — even dubious couplings (The Cleveland Clinic’s computer would only do so much for me).
But I digress. Some of what you’ve shared over the years has permanent real-estate in my mind. Beyond science outreach there’s value in seeing a scientist be authentic on a public platform that isn’t the impulse hell that is Twitter: no bells, no whistles. Keep “abusing our time” (so long as it is ok for your mental health)
Comment #22 September 26th, 2024 at 10:06 am
For those who are still confused, lets consider the slogan of the Houthis, a masterpiece of razor sharp precision, conciseness and understated elegance
God is the greatest, death to America, death to Israel, a curse upon the Jews, victory to Islam
Comment #23 September 26th, 2024 at 10:14 am
There’s probably as many sides to your main argument as there are readers of your blog, but I think *all* of us can agree that modern text editors that autoexpand \t to four spaces are one of the best arguments that, although the arc of the technical universe may be long, it bends towards justice. May similarly conclusive evidence soon remind us that this fact abides in the moral universe, too 🙏🏻
Comment #24 September 26th, 2024 at 10:41 am
#17 Scott:
I’m glad to hear that, as it at least means I’ve understood what you’ve written so far. On the other hand, I was probably too weaselly in stating my opinion, because I meant to disagree with at least part of this post. Namely, you seem to conflate the decision to take these sorts of actions against Israel to be a statement that Israel shouldn’t exist. I don’t think all anti-Zionists believe this, and I certainly don’t think that this decision on behalf of the IOI says this. I also think that modern invasions/occupations or war crimes, like Israel and Russia have carried out, puts them in a particular category that makes them legitimate targets for these sorts of actions.
Having said that, I do agree that banning countries from children’s academic competitions seems very ineffective and harmful to me. We had this same discussion with Eurovision – what is the line for what should be ‘political’ in this way? Especially when so many other countries, including those you’ve mentioned, do very harmful things. I also think anti-semitism comes to play in these decisions. I suppose I agree with Shmi – this is meant to be a more comforting comment along the lines of: if a ceasefire is agreed, I would imagine Israel could rejoin the IOI, even if it continues to exist and its population continue to have a home.
Comment #25 September 26th, 2024 at 10:45 am
For what little it’s worth, some of us have your back in this shit
Comment #26 September 26th, 2024 at 10:49 am
N #24:
Namely, you seem to conflate the decision to take these sorts of actions against Israel to be a statement that Israel shouldn’t exist. I don’t think all anti-Zionists believe this…
Aha, but Zionism is just the belief that Israel should exist. Plenty of people severely criticize the Israeli government from the left—including me and including millions of Israelis—but are still Zionists. It wouldn’t even occur to such a critic that banning participation in a teenagers’ programming competition could possibly be an appropriate outlet for the criticism—any more than banning American participation could possibly be an appropriate response to (say) the invasion of Iraq or the election of Donald Trump. Banning Israel is worse, actually, because the US is a superpower that can just laugh such things off, whereas Israel is a tiny oasis for the victims of some of the worst persecution the world has ever known.
Comment #27 September 26th, 2024 at 10:57 am
Register your disappeoval:
https://x.com/StopAntisemites/status/1839277800756260894
Comment #28 September 26th, 2024 at 11:00 am
Iustin Pop #7, Quasiparticular #21, Hugo #25, others: Thanks so much, my dudes. It means a lot to me.
Comment #29 September 26th, 2024 at 11:07 am
#25 Scott:
Although Zionism is the belief that Israel should exist, that also encompasses the historical movement to create it. Modern anti-Zionism generally states that this action was wrong, but it does not necessarily follow that Israel should no longer exist, much in the same way that a belief that the US is founded on genocide of Native Americans does not state that we should disband the US. Don’t get me wrong, I think some anti-Zionists believe this, and I agree with you that this is terrible. But I don’t think it categorizes the whole movement. I also think (like Shmi) that outcomes short of the end of Israel as a state would pacify the vast majority of protestors, etc – if not Israel’s enemies in Hamas et al. I also think a lot of anti-Zionists who are less well educated generally think they are opposing Israel’s expansion and not its creation (although I think you should argue against a movement based on how it is defined and not what some people think it is).
Aside from that, I think that the IOI’s decision is the sort of move that could come out as criticism for e.g. the invasion of Iraq, if the US didn’t have the same levels of influence. I think it’s a bit misguided, and I also think Israel is often more likely to face this sort of behavior (due to antisemitism), but I don’t think that it is an attempt to delegitimize its existence as a state – that was not the suggestion with Russia.
Comment #30 September 26th, 2024 at 11:32 am
It’s not that complicated: A state can defend itself and additionally pursue a war of total annihilation against a neighbor, these two don’t have to be mutually exclusive and the issue here is the second bit. A pretty solid evidence of this claim is that both sides of the attacks will likely face charges of war crimes by the ICC. Regardless, I’m against banning any country in competitions including IOI, and that also includes Russia (which got all-gold medals in 2024 which would be the 1st place, but didn’t count). For what it’s worth, nobody really cares about country standings at IOI, and the individuals aren’t banned (so there’s nothing against Israelis here, just their government).
Comment #31 September 26th, 2024 at 11:32 am
Matt Leifer #9,
Is Germany safe for Jews now? Will it be in 50 years? 200 years? Will the US be safe to Jews under Trump / Harris? There were so many places where Jews have flourished, like Spain, Russia, Poland, Iraq, Egypt, but it never lasts.
The point is that no place is guaranteed to be safe forever, unless we control our fate by having a state of our own.
Comment #32 September 26th, 2024 at 11:50 am
Scott, you must be unaware of the situation with another major international math olympiad – IMC (International Mathematics Competition for University Students, https://www.imc-math.org.uk).
After the initial 2022 ban on Russians teams they were free to participate in 2023 and 2024. Like nothing happened and still happening. My understanding is that professor John E. Jayne, who is the organizer of the competition, simply doesn’t care about justice.
While Russians are free to visit and participate in the competition, Ukrainian male students can’t leave the country, both girls and boys have to study and learn under constant rocket attacks, or just dead as a result of them https://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~laci/yz.html.
Ukrainian teams boycotted the 2024 competition after the change of rules in 2023 (even though they were given the generous permission to participate online), but no other team have followed, as I’m aware.
Comment #33 September 26th, 2024 at 12:03 pm
#19 John Schilling:
Thank you for your reply.
When quoting the destroy Hamas thing, I was really trying to gesture at the broader statements made by Israeli politicians along the lines of ‘kill all Hamas supporters’. After reading the responses, I agree this was the wrong wording to use and I should have been specific. I would really like Hamas to be defeated in the way you describe (which I imagine goes without saying).
Anyway, my main argument was to try and illustrate a more general point, which was that I believe the current Israeli government will pursue any course of action to make that happen, even beyond what is acceptable in international law, and causes enormous loss of life to civilians.
A potential response would be: is that not worth it, if Hamas would like to wipe Israel off the map? But I don’t think any of us believe Hamas have the capability to make that happen – even if they clearly have the capability to do awful things. And I think Israel’s actions are worsening the situation, not just for Palestinians, but for Jews worldwide.
Comment #34 September 26th, 2024 at 12:04 pm
Danylo Yakymenko #32: Thanks, I was indeed unaware of that!
My position is that one can defend banning Russia or not banning it from such competitions, though either way one should try to minimize the harm to individual Russian teenagers who are not responsible for their government. By contrast, there’s no honest defense whatsoever of banning Israel, especially if one doesn’t also ban (just for starters) China, Syria, and Iran.
Comment #35 September 26th, 2024 at 12:06 pm
Y #31: Right. I’d like to believe that the US will be safe for Jews forever—that having religious tolerance and other Enlightenment values built into its founding documents makes it an outlier in human history—but I’m also grateful that Israel exists in case I’m wrong about that. In any case, we of course already know that the US is not a reliable haven for Jews who aren’t already citizens.
Comment #36 September 26th, 2024 at 12:53 pm
Scott you’re the best! Thank you for your big heart
Comment #37 September 26th, 2024 at 12:54 pm
As predicted, Bibi is trying harder than ever to help his pal Trump in the last few weeks before the US elections…
And, talking about double standards, it’s about time for the rest of the world to finally realize that Gaza and Lebanon civilian lives are worth jack shit because they don’t score high enough on the “enlightenment” and “math competition” scales.
Comment #38 September 26th, 2024 at 1:04 pm
fred #37: Any further dehumanizing comments like that will earn a blog ban. Gazan and Lebanese civilian lives are, as shouldn’t need to be said, worth the same as all other lives. The issue is that the only way to protect those lives is with peace, and the only way to get a sustainable peace is via governments in Gaza and Lebanon that both control their territory and accept the existence of Israel.
Comment #39 September 26th, 2024 at 1:09 pm
It was sarcasm… the point is that they’re not treated as being worth the same as others.
Even China is shocked by the lack of concern for the populations (not to mention European nations).
But I understand it’s hard for many to not try and rationalize what Bibi is doing.
Btw, ex-CIA director’s take on some of the recent events in Lebanon:
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4893900-leon-panetta-lebanon-explosions-terrorism/
Comment #40 September 26th, 2024 at 1:22 pm
fred #39: The Chinese government is full of shit here, and is (I think) mostly interested in what will destabilize the West and help its oil supplier Iran. I can guarantee that its recent support for Hamas and Hezbollah is not because of an outpouring of humanitarian scruples.
Comment #41 September 26th, 2024 at 1:22 pm
Quote from “Dune Messiah”:
There exists a limit to the force even the most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengeance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created.
Comment #42 September 26th, 2024 at 1:23 pm
Mahdi #30: “A state can defend itself and additionally pursue a war of total annihilation against a neighbor, these two don’t have to be mutually exclusive and the issue here is the second bit. ”
That claim is simply incorrect. The civilian casualty count in Gaza stands at approximately 20,000 out of a population of 2 million, which does not amount to ‘total annihilation.’ The ICC investigation, driven by political motivations, has not presented conclusive findings and therefore is not solid evidence of wrongdoing. Moreover, it cannot be overstated that the United States, during the war on ISIS, was responsible for far more civilian casualties without facing accusations of ‘attempted annihilation.’ This underscores that Israel’s actions remain within the bounds of normal and legitimate urban warfare. Lastly, no viable alternative strategy has been offered for how Israel should effectively defend itself, making the distinction between ‘self-defense’ and ‘illegal warfare’ meaningless until such alternatives are proposed.
Comment #43 September 26th, 2024 at 1:28 pm
Scott #40
“The Chinese government is full of shit here,”
I didn’t write the “Chinese government”, I wrote “China” (as the people, like I wrote “European nations”).
The Chinese are foreign to concepts like anti-semitism and pro/anti-zionism, but they can plainly see what’s happening on the ground, in terms of suffering.
Comment #44 September 26th, 2024 at 1:38 pm
A brilliant piece!
Can I send it to ‘The Jewish Chronicle’ (London, UK – the oldest Jewish newspaper in the world) and ask them to print it?
Comment #45 September 26th, 2024 at 1:42 pm
Shocked to hear about this ban. Why do high school academic contests have to take ANY political positions? Can they not simply focus on their academic area and giving high schoolers a beautiful competition to strive for?
The IOI comes across as hypocrites, indeed.
My heart goes out to young brilliant kids in high schools in Israel who were dreaming of representing their country in this.
Maybe there’s jealousy towards them, at the bottom of this ban.
Sorry this type of nonsense continues. I guess wokism is still going strong.
Comment #46 September 26th, 2024 at 1:45 pm
After 9/11 W. Bush had a 92% approval rate in the US, it’s only natural people rally behind their “leader” after a traumatic event…
But at some point you have to wake up and start questioning whether the path you’re being lead into is really in the best long term interest of the nation.
Comment #47 September 26th, 2024 at 1:47 pm
Also, fred #39: No, the intrinsic worth of Gazan and Lebanese civilian lives is not in question. The issue is that these civilians have the severe misfortune to live under regimes that value their lives so little that they would slaughter Israeli civilians and then hide behind their own civilians as shields, daring the Israelis to either
(1) strike back (and earn the condemnation of the world and their own consciences), or else
(2) consent to their own annihilation.
Anyone who wants the Israelis to pick (2) ought to lead by example, and be the change they wish to see in the world.
Comment #48 September 26th, 2024 at 1:50 pm
“…and programming indentation style”!! So funny :).
Thank you for the humor. So necessary in these dark times.
Comment #49 September 26th, 2024 at 2:15 pm
The people you sometimes (often) find wanting will defend the Jewish people until death. I agree no absolute certainty but can’t imagine the people of Texas will abide any anti-Semitism as far out as I can imagine.
I intend to travel to Israel earlier than I planned so will be contacting you via email within the next month. I don’t plan to take my daughters with me considering the situation.
Comment #50 September 26th, 2024 at 2:21 pm
Scott, while you frame the International Olympiad in Informatics’ decision to ban Israel as an “injustice,” this is a rare moment of accountability in a world that too often turns a blind eye to Israel’s violations. Banning Israel isn’t just symbolic; it’s a reflection of how global communities are increasingly unwilling to tolerate a regime rooted in apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and oppression. Why should Israeli students enjoy international privileges while their government deprives Palestinian children of education, freedom, and basic human rights? You talk about fostering innovation and progress, but innovation that flourishes in an apartheid state is built on the suffering of others. The IOI’s ban sends a clear signal that human rights matter more than technological achievements. If Israel wants to be welcomed into global forums like the IOI, it must start by dismantling its apartheid policies and granting Palestinians the same dignity it demands for itself.
The future of international cooperation depends on holding violators of human rights accountable, and this is a step in that direction. Come on. You know this, you’re just pretending you don’t.
Comment #51 September 26th, 2024 at 2:50 pm
Theorist Israel #42: I hesitate to interact with unnamed people on the internet (so I won’t do this again), but do you really think that you need to kill every single person in a population to trigger their annihilation? You just need to trigger a chain process and killing a few percent and making the area uninhabitable and prone to the spread of disease, hunger, and crime over lack of resources would be more than enough. There are thousands of pages of documentation and video footage of what’s going on despite Israel’s deliberate attempts at banning all independent media, so the claim on lack of evidence is laughable. Netanyahu has also had plenty of opportunities for an alternative approach, but he’s simply uninterested due to his corruption and the possibility of facing legal charges if and as soon as the war ends. There’s also evidence that this very fact of him being busy with corruption and ignoring clear signs of an imminent Hamas attack before 10/7 left the obvious security flaws at the border which could have been prevented. As far as the IOI is concerned, I don’t support banning any nation as I clearly stated before.
Comment #52 September 26th, 2024 at 2:52 pm
Dr. Aaronson #35
After Dobbs overturned the Roe decision, Justice Thomas is known to have suggested pursuing other prior decisions that had been based upon a similar principle. That principle is known as “substantive due process.” It is, presumably, a basis for why states cannot enforce various discriminatory laws. Substantive due process is why we “perceive” freedom of religion as an Enlightenment principle in the modern United States. It is what forces states to respect the bill of rights:
“Although the extent of the rights protected by substantive due process may be controversial, its theoretical basis is firmly established and forms the basis for much of modern constitutional case law. Passage of the Reconstruction Amendments (13th, 14th, and 15th) gave the federal courts the authority to intervene when a state threatened fundamental rights of its citizens,14 and one of the most important doctrines flowing from this is the application of the Bill of Rights to the states through the Due Process Clause.15 Through the process of “selective incorporation,” most of the provisions of the first eight Amendments, such as free speech, freedom of religion, and protection against unreasonable searches and seizures, are applied against the states as they are against the federal government. Though application of these rights against the states is no longer controversial, the incorporation of other substantive rights, as is discussed in detail below, has been.”
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-5/due-process-overview
Freedom of religion as we have understood it had not necessarily been what the framers of theconstitution had intended. This is particularly important to understand because the current Supreme Court is populated with accommodationists who do not necessarily respect the separation of church and state.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accommodationism_in_the_United_States
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_reconstructionism
I figuratively pull my hair out trying to get people to understand the stakes attached to political responsibilities. Presidents appoint judges, generally, and Supreme Court Justices, in particular. Elections are not Sunday football games with Democrats and Republicans as teams with quarterbacks.
I feel sorry for the young people who cast their “vote” by not participating.
Anyway, I support the positions you express. In fact, I am less concerned about non-combatants than you. The United States has been less supportive of democratic principles for 23 years because of 9/11. Yet, it remains the brightest hope for reasonably tolerant societies. So, the slogan from Eitan Bachmat in comment #22,
“God is the greatest, death to America, death to Israel, a curse upon the Jews, victory to Islam”
precludes me from, otherwise liberal, sentiments of empathy.
Comment #53 September 26th, 2024 at 3:08 pm
Scott #45
and adding the fate of the Israeli hostages to your analysis makes it clear that Palestinians and Israelis have now one more thing in common: leaders who are ready to sacrifice their own civilians to protect their political survival.
Comment #54 September 26th, 2024 at 3:15 pm
RR #15, one source for casualty numbers I find moderately reputable, is the Office of the United Nation’s High Commissioner on Human Rights. Page 2 reports 310 civilian casualties in the self-proclaimed republics, during years 2018-2021, or roughly 80 per year. Those were mostly caused by mines and handling of unexploded ordnance.
https://ukraine.un.org/en/168060-conflict-related-civilian-casualties-ukraine
Comment #55 September 26th, 2024 at 3:45 pm
For what it’s worth, even as someone who is very critical of Israel and its treatment of Palestinians, I think it is totally inappropriate to exclude Israeli scientists, mathematicians, etc. from international competitions, forums, etc. Such academic boycotts are also why I oppose BDS. Discriminating against individuals on the basis of identities that they cannot easily change (such as national citizenship) is wrong. Furthermore, STEM academics are, in my experience, generally some of the most peaceful and rational individuals in their respective societies. These boycotts are thus not just unjust but also self-sabotaging– they disadvantage and antagonize the people most likely to support and/or lead peace initiatives in the future.
I think a far better initiative on the part of IOI delegates would have been to provide additional support and coaching for the Palestinian IOI team. And more generally, I think subsidizing STEM programs in the West Bank is far more likely to have a positive impact than academic BDS.
Comment #56 September 26th, 2024 at 3:50 pm
The trouble is Scott that Israel is going far beyond what is necessary for its defence and so is losing the goodwill of the rest of the world. Banning Israel from the International Olympiad on Informatics is just a symptom of this. You don’t have to be a paragon of enlightened morality to be deeply disturbed by the situation in Gaza and now it seems the situation in Lebanon too. We are all emotionally affected by these events and appalled by the inhumanity and some just want to register their revulsion in whatever way they can. As I have just done.
Comment #57 September 26th, 2024 at 3:52 pm
Forget that I disagree with almost everything you stated, I am most curious right now what you want exactly other than a ceasefire? What is your alternative? Israel just keeps bombing its neighbors until they somehow suddenly ‘feel safe’?
If you really think them bombing Beirut is going to do that, I have to wonder what in the world gives Israel a right to absolute safety over the Lebanese. The world has to deal with terrorism in some way, but by analogy you don’t get to just shoot 50 people if someone in a crowd shoots at you, regardless of their motives. No court in the world would consider that self-defense, even the one that acquitted Kyle Rittenhouse I don’t think.
Comment #58 September 26th, 2024 at 3:59 pm
I bet that all those in the US who question or partly disagree with what you wrote vote Kamala. Scott, this is not a coincidence.
To clarify: I don’t support Trump. But normalizing antisemitism is a thing of Democrats these days.
Comment #59 September 26th, 2024 at 4:36 pm
#47: “If Israel wants to be welcomed into global forums like the IOI, it must start by dismantling its apartheid policies and granting Palestinians the same dignity it demands for itself.”
Nah, that’s not it. Gaza is not occupied since 2005, the Palestinian Authority controls the West Bank and the Palestinians have been offered their own independent state in the West Bank and Gaza (and much more) over the last 90 years. Sadly, they rejected it every time.
Comment #60 September 26th, 2024 at 4:39 pm
Periklis #55: Millions of Americans (including myself) who agree with everything I wrote will be voting for Kamala as well—considering her the “survival of liberal democracy on earth” candidate, in a way that sort of overrides lower-order differences on middle-east policy. On the high-order question, of whether Israel gets to continue to exist and defend itself, Kamala, Trump, and I are actually all on the same side, with both the far left and much of the far right on the opposite side.
Comment #61 September 26th, 2024 at 4:42 pm
#53 David,
“You don’t have to be a paragon of enlightened morality to be deeply disturbed by the situation in Gaza and now it seems the situation in Lebanon too. We are all emotionally affected by these events and appalled by the inhumanity and some just want to register their revulsion in whatever way they can. As I have just done.”
Well, another one who twists the cause and effect? Lebanon (Hezbollah) is sending missiles to Israel for over 11 months, causing 100,000 Israelis to become refugees in their own country. And when Israel responds (much too late) you are “appalled by the inhumanity”. Sorry, but that’s systemic antisemitism.
Comment #62 September 26th, 2024 at 4:47 pm
Nate #54: Ooh, I get to make up a wishlist? OK then, in roughly increasing order of magic:
– Elimination of Sinwar and the remaining Hamas leadership
– Elimination of Nasrallah and remaining Hezbollah leadership
– Destruction of Hezbollah’s remaining missile launchers
– Rescue of the remaining hostages
– Ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah
– Reconstruction of Gaza with help from the PA and/or moderate Arab countries, and no role for Hamas
– Return of Israel’s 70,000 internal refugees to their homes in the north, and of Lebanon’s internal refugees to their homes in the south
– Defeat of Netanyahu in an election (and ideally, his imprisonment on corruption charges); replacement by someone else like Yair Lapid or at least Bennett
– Normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia (ideally other Muslim countries also)
– A peaceful Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, and the dismantling of all West Bank settlements that make that impossible
– The end of Iran’s nuclear program
– Regime change in Iran
A few of these steps can be done unilaterally by Israel, but others obviously require the other side. Is there anything on my wishlist that you reject, or anything essential I left out? If not, then our views might actually be closer than it would appear!
Comment #63 September 26th, 2024 at 4:56 pm
David #53:
The trouble is Scott that Israel is going far beyond what is necessary for its defence and so is losing the goodwill of the rest of the world.
(1) Israel may not ever have had the goodwill of the rest of the world, as evidenced by all the people who cheered on October 7, and who continue to see it as heroic or at least understandable resistance.
(2) How do you know that “Israel is going far beyond what is necessary for its defence”? Sure, Israel could unilaterally stop fighting, but then Hamas would just regroup and do another October 7 a few years from now (it’s explicitly said it would!), and also Hezbollah would continue raining missiles on northern Israel whenever it felt like it, preventing 70,000 Israelis from returning home, and also Iran would complete its nuclear weapons, threatening to unleash Hezbollah if Israel tries to stop it, and then move on to the nuclear-armed phase of its stated foreign policy goal, eliminating the “Zionist entity” from the face of the earth. Do you consider these outcomes acceptable?
Comment #64 September 26th, 2024 at 4:58 pm
fred #50: I’d desperately like to see the hostages returned, but not at the cost of letting Hamas rearm. After all, Israel wouldn’t be in the terrible place it is right now if it hadn’t previously given Hamas virtually everything it wanted, including the release of Sinwar, in return for Gilad Shalit.
Comment #65 September 26th, 2024 at 5:03 pm
Fricasante #47: The fact that you
(1) ignored the actual argument I made (about the core issue, according to both sides, being whether Israel and its Jewish population get to continue to exist),
(2) substituted a terrible argument about “innovation and progress” that exists only in your head, and
(3) having totally failed to engage the actual concern with stopping Iran, Hamas, and Hezbollah’s intended second Holocaust, claimed that I must secretly agree with you but be pretending not to …
… disqualifies you from any further participation here.
Comment #66 September 26th, 2024 at 5:06 pm
Scott
The following might give you some strength:
During the centuries of vicious religious persecutoin of Jews in Catholic Europe, rabbis of different locales were very often called before the local bishop to defend the Jewish religion against its refusal to believe in Jesus. These events were called ‘disputations’.
And the penalty for a rabbi’s unsuccessful defense ? Mass conversion or mass death.
I often think of this when I sense myself perhaps wavering in doing what I know is right.
All the best,
Shana Tova !
Comment #67 September 26th, 2024 at 5:08 pm
Mahdi #48,
I understand now that your argument is that in the near future Gaza population is about to be annihilated. This is an extreme claim, so disconnected from reality that time will soon prove how mistaken you are.
Your next point suggests that ‘thousands of pages and videos’ prove Israel’s intent for ‘total annihilation.’ That’s not very convincing, simply because such evidence doesn’t exist (and neither does the ‘total annihilation’ you’re referring to).
You also argue that ‘many alternatives to the war in Gaza were proposed to Israel, but Netanyahu rejected them due to corruption and fear of prison.’ This isn’t a serious argument, and I’ll excuse your lack of understanding of Israeli politics. No viable combat alternatives have been presented to Israel—only calls for a ‘ceasefire’, which is not a realistic long-term self-defense strategy.
Comment #68 September 26th, 2024 at 5:14 pm
David #53
the entire argument from American Jews (like in #45) is binary:
either Israel strikes back no matter the cost in terms of civilian casualties, or it does nothing and will be annihilated.
You can ask “what’s the upper limit of Gaza civilian casualty level that would make the Israeli’s response disproportionate? 100,000? 200,000? a million?”
Similarly, one could also ask “what’s the lower limit of Israel casualty level on October 7th that would make the current response of Israel out of proportion? 500? 200? 100? 50? 10?”
When emotions are driving everything, sadly, it doesn’t seem to matter (the US was the same after 9/11).
This simplistic binary argument is really because they know that Bibi does whatever he wants (as always… which raises the question as to whether Israel is still a democracy), not even the US can alter his decisions in the slightest. Bibi knows that the bombs and weapons will keep coming no matter what.. if the flow could be stopped (or if the US had some influence on how the weapons are used, just like it does with Ukraine) calls for various bans of Israel wouldn’t happen.. Bibi’s new effort is to drag the US into a war with Iran (which is too big for Israel to take alone), with the vision that an Iran with nukes is how Israel will be annihilated (it’s not like Hamas will conduct another thousand October 7th). Seems like at the moment Iran is wiser than to support Hezbollah “no matter what”, because they can’t afford a war and know what Bibi is trying.
If you search on YouTube for reactions to what’s been said on the Israeli podcast “Two Nice Jewish Boys”, you’ll see that the main narrative in Israel is actually way more straightforward than the intellectual contortions done by American Jews to rationalize the horror: plain and simple revenge for October 7th (which is both very sad but understandable at many levels), and that the region has reached a point where one side has to be indeed “annihilated”, and the world should side with Israel, no question asked, because of things like the number of Nobel prizes they’ve won or that they represent enlightenment in the region (which is a questionable claim considering how much of Israel is now comprised of their own type of religious or far-right fanatics).
The problem is that the rest of the world just can’t accept to think in such binary terms.
Comment #69 September 26th, 2024 at 5:16 pm
Nate #54:
> Forget that I disagree with almost everything you stated, I am most curious right now what you want exactly other than a ceasefire? What is your alternative? Israel just keeps bombing its neighbors until they somehow suddenly ‘feel safe’?
> If you really think them bombing Beirut is going to do that, I have to wonder what in the world gives Israel a right to absolute safety over the Lebanese.
Israel has been shot at by Hezbollah in Lebanon, for the past 11 months. The entire North of Israel is basically abandoned, 70k Israelis are internally displaced and can’t go back to their homes, and I think estimates are that 10%-20% of North Israel is destroyed. Fires have rages throughout the North multiple times because of Hezbollah rockets.
So my question is – what should Israel do? Just continue to let Hezbollah keep firing? Just give up on a portion of the country?
I’ll remind you that Hezbollah is in violation of the ceasefire agreement of 2006, in violation of the UN resolution that set up that ceasefire. And I’ll also remind you that the UN is tasked with making sure Hezbollah is not in a position to threaten Israel by making sure that resolution 1701 gets implemented. It has failed to do so.
So again, what should Israel do?
Comment #70 September 26th, 2024 at 5:27 pm
David #53:
> The trouble is Scott that Israel is going far beyond what is necessary for its defence and so is losing the goodwill of the rest of the world. […]
> You don’t have to be a paragon of enlightened morality to be deeply disturbed by the situation in Gaza and now it seems the situation in Lebanon too. We are all emotionally affected by these events and appalled by the inhumanity and some just want to register their revulsion in whatever way they can. As I have just done.
I’m also deeply appalled. Most decent people are. War is indeed appalling. It’s always been appalling, and it will always be appalling. Unfortunately, wars are sometimes necessary. Israel being invaded, its citizens slaughtered, by a group that’s intent on doing it again and again, is a pretty good reason to go to war.
I don’t think Israel is doing everything right, not by a long shot, and plenty of criticism can and should be leveled at parts of this war. A lot more criticism can be leveled at Hamas, which not only provoked this war, but is holding its own people hostage and using them as human shields, in many different ways.
The real question, for the purpose of an action like banning Israel, is whether Israel is indeed doing something that is “far beyond what is necessary for its defence”, as you put it. I’m a proponent of ceasefire for many reasons, not least of which is to ease the suffering of Gazans. Still, I won’t pretend that this leaves Israel safe from Hamas. It’s pretty clear at this stage that, if Israel ends the war against Hamas now, Hamas will just regain control of Gaza and start working on the next attack on Israel. Not to mention, it will continue to sell out its own people, and instead of developing Gaza, it will invest resources into continuing the war.
Do you see it playing out differently? How? If not, what does it mean to say that Israel has gone beyond what’s required for defense?
Comment #71 September 26th, 2024 at 5:32 pm
We are all in agreement that bombing of hospitals, as done by Russia in Ukraine, is wrong. It appears that Russia’s motivation is that it finds NATO expansion to be an existential threat. We are also in agreement that this is not a justification for wholesale aggression and territorial acquisition. Since then, Russian athletes have been allowed to compete but not under the flag.
It is true that Kamala will not do anything that upsets the status quo regardless of anything that this or any other Israeli government does. Maybe Reagan in 1982 to Begin about the bombing of Lebanon was the last time a US President said something critical. While this issue is a low priority for voters, the timing of operations appears to be a cynical move to exploit US preoccupation with the election, perhaps even try to influence it. Perhaps that makes this specific issue more relevant to the US voter than the other ills that plague this world.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/03/opinion/netanyahu-trump-harris.html
Comment #72 September 26th, 2024 at 5:42 pm
Edan,
I think you can just look at the request that is being made by Hezbollah in their propaganda, ceasefire in Gaza. So with a ceasefire in Gaza we can both get what we want, and you don’t have to keep advocating for more killing. You just have to believe the people of Hezbollah and Israel has to trust someone who has shot at you, which is hard for both sides obviously. So why can’t we have a ceasefire with a full withdrawal from Gaza and exchange of hostages?
I think Scott has stated that this will not make him, or Israel, feel safe because ‘Hamas will rearm’. You are going to have to realize that they will rearm even if you never stop bombing Gaza. They will just maybe have a different name or face, and they will hate Israel even more. Safety is not coming any closer with more attacks. I’ll believe you want peace, but you are not getting it this way, regardless of your justifications. The occupation of Gaza will only create more Hamas, that is just the reality of Gazans being human beings and not robots you can just tell to stop being angry you killed their family.
Scott,
My implication was ‘as to what could make Israel feel safe in the moment’, not a general regional wish list, but I do not disagree with all your points (which I said), just most of them and a lot of that is how you phrase your thinking (ie ‘Rescue refugees’ is a very specific wording, implying no ceasefire to get them released). I do find it telling that you ask Iran to cease nuclear production, do you then agree that Israel should also cease having a nuclear arsenal? I think I can get on board with that. But it would lose you that argument about Israel being able to nuke Gaza and not doing it so they can’t be committing genocide.
Comment #73 September 26th, 2024 at 5:53 pm
Edan Maor #66
It’s nice to bring up UN resolutions, like the UN ought to stop Hezbollah’s violation of agreement xyz, but what do you expect realistically when the UN can’t stop things like illegal Israeli colonies in the West Bank either?
Clearly the world is powerless when it comes to curb all the stuff that’s going on in the region, and every side seems to have plenty of reasons why they act the way they do (well, everyone have their own reasons, by definition).
“70k Israelis are internally displaced and can’t go back to their homes”
90,000 Lebanese are now displaced too, with over 1000 casualties, in a few of days (already on par with the 2006 war).
“So again, what should Israel do?”
Not to blame anyone (?), but it’s a real shame that apparently no-one saw that stuff coming back when Israel was founded, somehow everyone thought it was just gonna be smooth sailing till then to eternity? Instead things seem to keep getting more and more complicated, uglier and uglier, with no happy ending in sight for anyone.
Comment #74 September 26th, 2024 at 6:04 pm
As an atheist agnostic born and raised in a Muslim family in a Muslim country I wholeheartedly believe in, ‘I am a slave to the one who taught me a single letter’ (Imam Ali). I am a humble servant of all kind-hearted scientists who believe in science and serve the future of humanity.
“one should try to minimize the harm to individual Russian teenagers who are not responsible for their government.” S.A.
Exactly, do not drag children into political games.
My door is ALWAYS open to you and your family. We will share whatever bread we have.
With the warmest regards from a land devastated by the earthquake.
Comment #75 September 26th, 2024 at 6:23 pm
ira #63
“During the centuries of vicious religious persecutoin of Jews in Catholic Europe, rabbis of different locales were very often called before the local bishop to defend the Jewish religion against its refusal to believe in Jesus.”
Yes, the Bishops were very confused… but, in their defense, it should be pointed out that, after all, Jesus was (and still is) the most popular Jew of all time, after Abraham.
Comment #76 September 26th, 2024 at 6:41 pm
ira #63
“During the centuries of vicious religious persecutoin of Jews in Catholic Europe, rabbis of different locales were very often called before the local bishop to defend the Jewish religion against its refusal to believe in Jesus.”
Let’s not also forget the centuries of vicious religious persecution of Catholics in the Roman Empire, and in countless places (on large, or small scale, like in 17th century Japan, etc).
All those people died for their love and devotion to a Jew…
There’s been plenty of non-sense and atrocities going on everywhere throughout the ages.
Comment #77 September 26th, 2024 at 7:21 pm
fred #70:
So again, what should Israel do?”
Not to blame anyone (?), but it’s a real shame that apparently no-one saw that stuff coming back when Israel was founded…
Of course people foresaw problems (though Herzl made the colossal mistake of believing the local Arabs would act out of economic self-interest, rather than other motives like revenge and martyrdom). But for hundreds of thousands of Jews, the choice was literally either to sneak into Israel (violating the British Jew-quota demanded by the Arabs) or else have your whole family suffocate on poison gas and turn into smoke and ash. Did you not know that? Do you know and not care?
This is why, every single time the anti-Israel people answer the central question—the “again, what should Israel do?” question—with “not have been founded in the first place,” they effectively make the Zionists’ case for them. It continues to astound me that they fail to understand this.
Comment #78 September 26th, 2024 at 7:24 pm
Edan Maor #67
“Still, I won’t pretend that this leaves Israel safe from Hamas. It’s pretty clear at this stage that, if Israel ends the war against Hamas now, Hamas will just regain control of Gaza and start working on the next attack on Israel.”
Sorry to point out the obvious, but maybe it would be wise to analyze what lead to the intelligence/logistical/tactical failure of October 7th…
an invasion from a bunch of ragtag losers emerging from a narrow strip of land where they’ve been confined for decades, with nowhere to go because they’re surrounded (in the air, sea, and land) and entirely controlled by high tech security/blockade run by one of the most advanced and smartest army and intelligence in the world, backed by compulsory and effective military service.
If that’s not enough of a low bar to achieve, I don’t know what is… and then nothing short of razing Gaza to the ground or occupy it indefinitely will accomplish safety, right? Is this what you’re implying?
Comment #79 September 26th, 2024 at 7:43 pm
Scott #74
“It continues to astound me that they fail to understand this.”
I’m sorry I’m not a scholar in Zionism, and I’m not an expert in the Hindu/Muslim problem in India either… each tribe has its own shit to worry about, right?…
I’m merely pointing out that the situation has constantly degraded, and not enough was done when there was opportunity (hindsight is 20/20,…), and it’s now too late and the problem has become untractable, short of annihilation of one side…
“though Herzl made the colossal mistake of believing the local Arabs would act out of economic self-interest, rather than other motives like revenge and martyrdom”
Like many American Jew atheists (e.g. Sam Harris, Eric Weinstein, Bill Maer,…), it sounds like you think the core of the problem is mainly “radical” Islam and its cult of death?
If so, what’s the solution?
Kill everyone of them without creating more martyrs, somehow?
Something like the CCP’s tactic to rewire the brains of millions of Uyghurs through reeducation camps, applied to Gaza?
Try to prop up moderate or ex Muslims so that the problem gets solved from within Islam?
Comment #80 September 26th, 2024 at 9:21 pm
fred #76: That most of the Jews who founded Israel had no other country that would take them, literally no other survival option—and that an even greater number of Jews went up in smoke because Israel wasn’t there for them in time—this is not, like, advanced knowledge of Zionist history. This is the bare minimum needed to have an informed opinion on this topic at all. (One can also, of course, choose silence on things one doesn’t know enough about. But you didn’t.)
Yes, of course the core of the problem is radical Islamism, which its proponents actually, literally believe (to the point of, eg, protecting their genitals in suicide bombings to be ready for the 72 virgins), and which is not just a smokescreen for economic concerns or a product of imperialism like idiot Westerners think. But no, the solution is not to blow up every radical Islamist. Instead it’s to empower the moderates in the Muslim world—Iran is teeming with them—who despise the radicals at least as much as we do. I wish we in the West were doing 100x more in that direction.
Comment #81 September 26th, 2024 at 9:22 pm
I’m not an expert either. It was very convenient for America though that it closed its doors. Truman foisted the problem on the Middle East over the objections of his Secretary of State Dean Acheson who correctly foresaw that this would be an unresolvable problem. The unfilled quota appears to be more than the immigrants via Aliyah Bet.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/united-states-immigration-and-refugee-law-1921-1980
Comment #82 September 26th, 2024 at 9:58 pm
RB #78:
Truman foisted the problem on the Middle East over the objections of his Secretary of State Dean Acheson who correctly foresaw that this would be an unresolvable problem.
See, we Jews have a very different historical memory of the same events. Ours is that the State Department was packed with antisemites, who knowingly enabled the Holocaust by turning away the refugees, and who then worked to thwart the establishment of the State of Israel to appease their Arab allies and keep the oil flowing. But that Harry Truman was sufficiently moved by the survivors’ plight (and by the pleas of Ed Jacobson, his Jewish WWI friend and haberdashery partner) that he overruled the State Department’s antisemites and even his own antisemitic feelings, and singlehandedly made a decision to recognize Israel minutes after its founding. And that this one act lifted Truman into the rarefied company of Cyrus the Great, who let the Jews return to Israel in 539 BC after the Babylonian Exile, among the most righteous Gentiles to have arisen since the dawn of civilization.
Comment #83 September 26th, 2024 at 10:09 pm
“Surely the plan won’t just be to ship the Jews back to the countries that murdered or expelled their grandparents, most of which have never offered to take them back?”
I would consider myself a left-of-center Zionist like probably the majority of US liberals and hope for peace and security in Israel as a Jewish state. But surely, if the worst comes to pass and say Iran gets nuclear weapons and somehow manages to smuggle them into the hands of Hamas or Hezbollah, shouldn’t the United States at least offer to absorb all of Israel’s population on humanitarian grounds which we could do relatively easily? Shouldn’t that be the last fallback plan?
Comment #84 September 26th, 2024 at 10:30 pm
DP #80: Yes. But I can tell you that only some Israelis will take the offer. Others will stay and fight to the end.
Comment #85 September 26th, 2024 at 11:03 pm
Scott # 77: “Yes, of course the core of the problem is radical Islamism”
I respectfully disagree. Most Palestinian political activity and terrorism was organized through the relatively secular PLO until the 1990s. And my understanding is that Christian Palestinians on the whole feel the same way about Israel as Muslim Palestinians. Obviously they dislike Hamas as well but my impression is that most see Israel as a greater enemy.
I am not disputing that Islam plays a role in the current conflict. The New Yorker’s profile of Sinwar a few weeks ago made clear that he is a radical Islamist, as well as a psychopath. Hamas and PIJ use suicide bombing, and as you mention, this is partly motivated by the bombers’ Islamic faith. However, Islam at most exacerbates the scale and type of terrorism, and does not explain its existence altogether. The core of the problem, as perceived by the Palestinians, was their ethnic cleansing and subsequent treatment by the Israeli state. Without this original grievance as a ‘substrate’, Islamism would not have become so popular.
Comment #86 September 26th, 2024 at 11:28 pm
It’s not that I believe Israel or Russia should be banned from the IOI. However, it’s worth noting that Israel’s image has worsened dramatically outside the US and globally, which can’t be entirely attributed to antisemitic propaganda on TikTok. Perhaps there is a humanitarian reason for this shift. I also find it questionable to label the recent bombings of Lebanon as self-defense.
Comment #87 September 26th, 2024 at 11:44 pm
DP #80: What Israel is doing now is preventing that kind of thing from ever passing.
SR #82: Historically sure. But nowadays it’s radical Islamism. It’s possible that without radical Islamism there could have been peace. You wouldn’t have Hamas or PIJ at all to act as spoilers to Oslo. Sadat wouldn’t be assassinated by Egyptian jihad for making peace.
Comment #88 September 26th, 2024 at 11:51 pm
SR @82: Where are the Christian Palestinian terrorists, then
Jimmy Carter@83: If you had to leave your home because someone was bombing it, wouldn’t you want your country’s army to do whatever it could to stop the bombings? The US invaded Afghanistan over far less.
Comment #89 September 27th, 2024 at 12:28 am
Jimmy Carter #83: Even if there is apparently a universal agreement about banishing budding Russian informaticians from international competitions, the case of Belarus appears to be a somewhat less compelling one here in Georgia, Armenia and North Carolina.
Belarus is very very far from being a liberal democracy and it is intimately allied with Russia, including, crucially, in military matters. But it is not the only such country. To the best of our knowledge: (a) Belarus armed forces did not directly participate in the criminal invasion of Ukraine by Russia/Putin regime; (b) to date Ukraine has not broken diplomatic relations with Belarus (Ukraine did sever diplomatic relations with Russia and with North Korea).
Comment #90 September 27th, 2024 at 12:48 am
Scott, thank you for your support and clarity. This new surge of antisemitism is truly overwhelming. How should we cope with it as a Jewish community?
Comment #91 September 27th, 2024 at 2:25 am
Sad news. I wouldn’t have predicted this from the IOI. (Though it’s been a long time since I was at the IOI, or talked with people involved in it.) I hope it doesn’t spread to the IMO and the other science olympiads.
This really tarnishes the competition for all the contestants. All the 2025 rankings will have an indelible asterisk on them, because some of the strongest competitors were excluded on account of unrelated policies of their country’s government. (And that’s if you give the ban’s motivation its most favorable interpretation.)
It’d be interesting to see how the different national delegations voted. Surely such a serious matter was decided by a formal vote with an exact tally, right?
Comment #92 September 27th, 2024 at 2:57 am
Thank you Scott for this post
Comment #93 September 27th, 2024 at 3:34 am
Scott #79
Cordell Hull winning the Nobel Peace Prize is a terrible blight on the Prize.
Comment #94 September 27th, 2024 at 4:36 am
Jimmy Carter #83:
> I also find it questionable to label the recent bombings of Lebanon as self-defense.
How *would* you label it? Hezbollah started bombing Israel on October 8th, and refuses to stop. 70k Israelis are internally displaced in Israel because of this, and Israel quite literally can’t guarantee safety in parts of the country because of this.
In what way is finally hitting back strongly against them *not* self defense? What *would* you consider to be self defense?
Comment #95 September 27th, 2024 at 5:10 am
This argument is always brought up:
” then hide behind their own civilians as shields”
That’s true, but given the enormous asymmetry of each side in terms of strike capabilities: Hamas is only able to fire blind missiles with very poor accuracy and high chance to be intercepted, while the IDF fully controls the skies, the sea, the ground, and is able to strike individuals walking in the open (using drones), destroy entirely individual buildings, or take out entire neighborhoods, etc …
from a practical/tactical point of view, Gaza is so narrow with zero natural protection, that if Hamas were to just stand in the ‘open’ in areas clearly separated from the rest (i.e. military camps/bases like the US had in Afghanistan or Iraq), they would be instantly and utterly destroyed, this asymmetry applies such a selective pressure that the only ones who survive a bit longer would be the ones effectively ‘hiding’ in civilian infrastructure.
It’s the same reason why the French resistance in WW2 was also often blending in the population, unless they could move to remote/hard to access areas, like deep forests or mountains, etc.
Comment #96 September 27th, 2024 at 5:21 am
Thank you for this post.
Minor remark: I attended a talk a few years ago, where the speaker made the same mistake, and a notable combinatorialist in the audience helped him remember: Moshe If and Only If. The e comes before the i in Mosheiff.
Comment #97 September 27th, 2024 at 5:45 am
Fred #65
“You can ask “what’s the upper limit of Gaza civilian casualty level that would make the Israeli’s response disproportionate? 100,000? 200,000? a million?”
Similarly, one could also ask “what’s the lower limit of Israel casualty level on October 7th that would make the current response of Israel out of proportion? 500? 200? 100? 50? 10?””
These questions are inherently biased towards the anti-Zionist side, and in asking these questions you fall right into the hands of Hamas and the Islamist terrorist regimes in general. The problem with comparing the lives of civilians in Israel and in Gaza is that Israel uses its military forces to protect its civilians, while in Gaza the exact opposite is true – Hamas uses the civilians to protect its military forces. The situation in Gaza and the civilian casualties there are the cause of Hamas using the civilians as a human shield much more than it is the cause of any decision made by Israel.
And to answer the question, I’m not American but in my opinion, any number of civilian casualties in Gaza is justified, as long as the same number of terrorists that caused the 10.7 attack, or have an intent to cause other similar attacks, are also killed (or even a smaller number with the same order of magnitude, if that’s allowed by international law), as long as the civilian casualties were necessary for these operations, and my answer wouldn’t change if 100, 50, and maybe even 10 Israelis were killed in that attack.
Comment #98 September 27th, 2024 at 6:26 am
fred #75:
> Sorry to point out the obvious, but maybe it would be wise to analyze what lead to the intelligence/logistical/tactical failure of October 7th…
Of course! And most Israelis are furious at the government and the military for letting this happen. If you think this is something that’s slipped everyone’s minds, then you’re sorely mistaken.
Now, the conclusion most people correctly reach is – we let our guard down, and considering that our neighbors are hell-bent on killing us, we can never, ever do that. Not exactly a conclusion that promotes peace. Netanyahu’s whole appeasement strategy – trying to deal with Hamas, provide them money, so that they focus on actually improving Gaza – that failed, and Hamas simply took that money and used it to fund this war.
Many, many people warned of what was coming – but it’s not like the solution would’ve made the people who criticize Israel happy. The solution would’ve been to attack Hamas early, to try and dismantle them earlier, to preempt October 7th. Had that happened, I’m fairly sure that the people who are angry at Israel for attacking Gaza *after* October 7th happened, would be even more angry at Israel for attacking for “no reason” from their POV.
So since you raised the question – what do you think about it? Do you think Israel should’ve just preemptively taken out Hamas 10 years ago, when they were preparing these kinds of attacks?
> and then nothing short of razing Gaza to the ground or occupy it indefinitely will accomplish safety, right? Is this what you’re implying?
No. I’m implying that getting rid of Hamas is one condition that is likely necessary for peace to happen. I’m also saying that Hamas is bad *for Palestinians*, both because of the day to day corruption and diversion of money to war instead of peace, but also because they’re dragging them into these conflicts.
I don’t know what is the moral calculus here from the POV of caring about Palestinians – I grieve for every innocent Gazan hurt in this fighting, but does that justify trying to forcibly remove Hamas? Is it better to stop the fighting and let Hamas remain in power, knowing that they will continue destroying and Gaza over and over in their non-step quest to conquer all of Israel? Idk.
(To be clear, there are *many* things I deeply despise about how the current war is being conducted, and I think Israel has done a lot of really bad things.)
Comment #99 September 27th, 2024 at 7:25 am
Scott, a digression inspired by your post: Has anyone attempted to report the US universities that tolerated blatant antisemitism to the major US and private funding agencies? For example, NSF offers https://www.nsf.gov/od/oecr/ They would be obligated to investigate and possibly sanction if they find evidence of discrimination.
Comment #100 September 27th, 2024 at 7:40 am
That zionist/anti-zionist argument going over endless historical decisions and details that happened decades ago is interesting in understanding where we are today, but mainly something done by outsiders in the conflict (American Palestinians/Jews/Christians, etc), because that’s the only context available to them.
But the vast majority of Lebanese, Palestinians, and Israelis who actually live in the area weren’t even alive when all those decisions were made in prior decades, and all have to live with the consequences.
From a practical point of view, today’s Lebanese, Palestinians, and Israelis are just at “home” wherever they were born and live, and that’s their main context/concern.
Noone wants to have their home destroyed or be displaced.
And, unsurprisingly, decades of living in close proximity in the same narrow area with constant back and forth in terms of tragedy makes them all more and more similar in terms of reality on the ground and view of one another.
Then on each side there are clearly radical fractions obsessed with taking or taking back territories from the other side.
Comment #101 September 27th, 2024 at 7:54 am
Fred #92
So you say Hamas is right to hide behind civilians, what if done by any respectable military force would be a violation of the Geneva convention and a war crime, just because their opponent is much stronger than them? Do you excuse war crimes, that lead to the death of tens of thousands of civilians, if they are done by the weak and “oppressed” side? This reminds me of the simplistic idealists who identify in any conflict the strong side, call it the oppressor and condemn it, while calling the weak side the oppressed and stand by its side, without any actual regard to the moral background of any of the sides.
Comment #102 September 27th, 2024 at 8:26 am
Scott #79
“And that this one act lifted Truman into the rarefied company of Cyrus the Great, who let the Jews return to Israel in 539 BC after the Babylonian Exile, among the most righteous Gentiles to have arisen since the dawn of civilization.”
Historical records dating that far back are always spotty and one sided, by definition (often written generations after the facts), with everyone now freely applying modern standards to the motivations at play…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Cyrus
“The Edict of Cyrus usually refers to the biblical account of a proclamation by Cyrus the Great, the founding king of the Achaemenid Persian Empire, in 539 BC. It was issued after the Persians conquered the Neo-Babylonian Empire upon the fall of Babylon, and is described in the Tanakh, which claims that it authorized and encouraged the return to Zion and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem (i.e., the Second Temple).
The Cyrus Cylinder text has also been called the “Edict of Cyrus”, but this text is now considered to support the biblical account only in a very general sense.
[…]
According to Chapter 45:1 of the Book of Isaiah, Cyrus was anointed by Yahweh for this task as a biblical messiah; he is the only non-Jewish figure to be revered in this capacity.”
So the so-called “records” claim the guy was literally anointed by God… just like Harry Truman? 😛
Comment #103 September 27th, 2024 at 8:39 am
fred #99: We can leave God out of it! Cyrus is well-attested historically, and was by far the most liberal, enlightened emperor of the ancient world by the standards of modern morality, even if you completely leave out his allowing the return of the Jews. See this excellent Astral Codex Ten post for more.
Comment #104 September 27th, 2024 at 9:01 am
Scott #100
thanks!
I also recommend the Dan Carlin “Hardcore History” podcast series “Kings of Kings” covering the Achaemenid Persian empire and Cyrus.
Comment #105 September 27th, 2024 at 9:25 am
Fred #97:
> That zionist/anti-zionist argument going over endless historical decisions and details that happened decades ago is interesting in understanding where we are today, but mainly something done by outsiders in the conflict (American Palestinians/Jews/Christians, etc), because that’s the only context available to them.
> […]
> From a practical point of view, today’s Lebanese, Palestinians, and Israelis are just at “home” wherever they were born and live, and that’s their main context/concern.
I couldn’t agree with you more that the history here is less relevant than the present. As some of my favorite peace-promoters often say, peace will come the day that everyone in the region accepts that 7 million Jews and 7 million Palestinians live on that land, and will continue to live on that land.
Unfortunately, your assumption that this kind of historical back-and-forth is mainly done by outsiders is wrong, in the sense that rolling back history to 1947, before Israel became a state, is exactly what Hamas is trying to do. Hence why Hamas is a barrier to peace.
Comment #106 September 27th, 2024 at 9:52 am
Edan #102
“Unfortunately, your assumption that this kind of historical back-and-forth is mainly done by outsiders is wrong”
That was in the context of the ‘average’ civilian population on each side, which just want to have somewhat normal lives and be left alone in peace where they happen to be born and live.
Of course in the context of the radical factions on each side that try to push back/expand/take back territories (whether Hamas, Hezbollah, or Israeli settlers in the West Bank, etc), historical context and religion is obviously constantly brought up too.
Comment #107 September 27th, 2024 at 10:30 am
Scott #79: USA was the first country to recognize Israel de facto on 14 May 1948 but it was USSR to first recognize Israel de jure on 17 May 1948 (USA extended its de jure recognition on 31 January 1949). I would not compare Stalin with Cyrus the Great though.
Comment #108 September 27th, 2024 at 11:54 am
Btw, for all the claims of Israel being the biggest ally of Western democracies and the surprised outrage over Israel and Russia being put in the same ideological bag, it’s worth pointing out again:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Russia_relations
“Unlike many Western countries, Israel has maintained relations with the Kremlin, refused to impose sanctions against Russia, and rejected calls to send defensive weaponry to Ukraine. Relations became strained during the 2023 Israel-Hamas war.”
At a practical level, Bibi needs Putin’s support to be able to freely keep flying and carry air strikes over the region (including Syria).
But the fact that Putin is now openly super friendly with Iran and relies on it to supply weapons against Ukraine is putting Bibi in a real bind (good!).
Bibi, Trump, Putin, what a lovely bunch…
Comment #109 September 27th, 2024 at 12:36 pm
fred #97
Agree with this, but this time it seems like an endgame. Gaza is unlivable, there are no universities, no houses, a decimated population. In an ongoing process, West Bank areas like Tulkarem and Jenin have been destroyed. Two-state solution might have been practical once but with the West Bank also pockmarked with ongoing settlements, only leftist Americans seem to believe in that dream. The story seems to be heading towards “We would like to begin by acknowledging that the land on which we gather is the occupied territory of [Native peoples]. We would like to acknowledge that [organization name] is located on the traditional and ancestral territory of [Native peoples]. We thank them for their hospitality and stewardship of this land.”
Comment #110 September 27th, 2024 at 12:40 pm
For the generation raised with the attention span of a tweet (university students across the world), Israel is the evil empire. Add that one to the long and growing list of social media repercussions on society. Now that this has precipitated in young minds, one can only shudder at the long term consequences. Will a maverick like Gandhi or MLK emerge to mitigate this, only time can tell.
Comment #111 September 27th, 2024 at 1:07 pm
fred #105
Putin has stated this is US and Israel versus the rest of the world and has met with Hamas in Moscow and characterized the conflict as the US extracting its blood toll. I believe your earlier statement about Netanyahu being motivated by his friendship for Trump must be a rhetorical artifice. It makes no sense to me otherwise. Of course Netanyahu prefers who he believes will best support his strategy but that is calculation not friendship.
If I may propose an alternative lovely grouping as a rhetorical artifice (please forgive me)-
Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, fred
Comment #112 September 27th, 2024 at 1:42 pm
Prasanna #107
being even older than Scott, I disagree with this.
All the older folks in my generation that I know (who aren’t in any tribe of the Middle-East) are shocked by the behavior of Bibi and his far-right bunch.
Also, don’t underestimate the younger generation.
First, when it comes to big issues, every young generation always has very idealistic views and feels very strongly about them. When I grew up, we kept arguing amongst us (often very violently) about things like the death penalty or the first Gulf war, etc.
What’s particular is that the current young generations have no choice but find ways to grow up/cope in the environment they inherited from the older generations – the millennial generation didn’t create the internet, they were plunged into it as children by their clueless parents.
But it’s clear to me they’re also way better than older generations at integrating information and cut through the crap.
On average, they’re clearly mature faster and smarter.
Your suggesting that it would take a Gandhi or MLK to help them accept the actions of Bibi is ridiculous.
Comment #113 September 27th, 2024 at 1:51 pm
Prasanna #107
“For the generation raised with the attention span of a tweet”
You worry about students, but there are plenty of examples of old high profile folks with tons of power totally captured and even more confused by social media… Trump, Musk…
Maybe that’s what you should be concerned about in priority.
Comment #114 September 27th, 2024 at 1:52 pm
OhMyGoodness #108: Leaving aside the hard-to-classify fred 🙂 , it’s clear that Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran/Hamas/Hezbollah have all drawn closer and closer in an anti-Western axis, one that I’d have no problem whatsoever characterizing as an “axis of evil.” Personally, I think it’s shortsighted for Western nations to seek any advantage by allying with any part of this axis. For example, I wish Israel would fully break things off with Russia and unequivocally back Ukraine, including militarily, and I also wish European nations would fully break things off with Iran. It will become increasingly clear to people that this is all one battle for the future of civilization.
Comment #115 September 27th, 2024 at 2:11 pm
fred #109: As I and many others have pointed out, there’s never been anything even remotely like a Palestinian Gandhi or MLK—a tragic absence. If such a figure ever arose, I expect their central impact would not be to persuade the Palestinians to accept Bibi, but rather, to persuade the Israelis to replace Bibi and everyone like him with leaders in the mold of Rabin.
Comment #116 September 27th, 2024 at 2:14 pm
It is very appropriate to compare the current situation to what happened when Cyrus ‘let the Jews return’. There were never ‘no’ Jewish people in that region, Israel or Judah, the Jewish population that was displaced was mostly the upper class and elite individuals who were thought to be potentially problematic in the first place, that is why they were exiled. The Assyrians did not hunt down everyone and there is a lot of evidence building that there were really very large populations of various Jewish sects that never went anywhere. When the Jews that were repatriated by Cyrus returned to the region, they actually began to enforce their brand of Judaism on those that had never left and had never agreed to stop worshipping without a temple. Sound kind of familiar?
So, while Cyrus deserves some credit maybe for his moral character, the idea that the ‘return’ was hailed by all Jews as such a great thing is super non-historical and flies in the face of the reality that was taking place after the destruction of the first temple. If you just listen to what the Torah (or pick your current biblical text) says now you will never get a real history because that is a perspective that was given by those that believed, for example, no sacrifices should take place until the temple could be rebuilt so that sacrifices could continue per their ‘correct’ tradition.
Let’s at least take on ‘all’ of the reality of history if we are going to refer to it. For example, one of the things the returning sect believed that those who had remained didn’t was that Jews should only marry other Jews and they began to break up marriages between what you like to call ‘Gentiles’ and Jewish people. Sounds kind of amoral if you ask me.
Comment #117 September 27th, 2024 at 2:20 pm
Scott #109
and let’s add to the mix two of the so-called “biggest democracies in the world” that gleefully joined the BRICS:
India with Modi, and Brazil with Da Silva (after he defeated the pro-Trump Bolsonaro).
At least Modi is now moving somewhat a bit away from Putin, after visiting Ukraine, etc.
Of course no-one really claims that any of this is about “friendship”… it’s all about power, self-interest, and authoritarian regimes or wanna-be-authoritarian regimes all siding against Western Democracies and their post-WW2 world order and their post-Cold War certainty that peace had been achieved once and for all… of course if that anti-West front were to actually win, those artificial alliances would instantly crumble into global wars (the CCP has no respect for Russia, they’ve always opposed one another).
And, as I’ve said it many times, Israel sliding further and further away from democracy under Bibi (they had a year of anti-Bibi protests against his justice reforms, with zero result…) is making Democracies look hypocritical in the eyes of the South that suffered for decades under true Colonialism and are being seduced by the BRICS narrative.
Comment #118 September 27th, 2024 at 2:27 pm
Doug S. #85: “Where are the Christian Palestinian terrorists, then”
Some examples are:
* George Habash, who directed the Dawson’s Field hijackings of 4 planes as leader of the PFLP
* Wadie Haddad, who organized the Entebbe hijacking
* Sirhan Sirhan, who assassinated RFK Sr. over his support of Israel
* Nayef Hawatmeh, under whose leadership the DFLP joined Hamas in their attacks on Oct. 7
* Kamal Nasser, killed by Israel for his involvement in the Munich massacre
* (Allegedly Christian) Luttif Afif, who led the Munich Massacre terrorists
Of course, this is numerically smaller than the number of notable Palestinian Muslim terrorists. But this is to be expected as only ~ 2% of Palestinians living in the West Bank, and even less in Gaza, are Christian.
If one expands the question to support of terrorism, the rates are even higher. Polling is hard to come by, but polling of Lebanese Christians, whom one would expect to be similar, indicates that 60% supported the Oct. 7 attacks (https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-770959) and 59% support Hamas (https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/shadow-hezbollah-israel-escalation-poll-shows-slim-majority-lebanese-still-want). If anything, I suspect the numbers amongst Palestinian Christians would be higher.
Crush H+H #84: “Historically sure. But nowadays it’s radical Islamism. It’s possible that without radical Islamism there could have been peace. You wouldn’t have Hamas or PIJ at all to act as spoilers to Oslo. Sadat wouldn’t be assassinated by Egyptian jihad for making peace.”
It’s certainly possible. However, of the figures I cite above, Habash was opposed to Oslo and Hawatmeh seems to have gone back and forth. In the absence of Hamas/PIJ, their factions may have emerged as victorious instead. Also, while Islamists were responsible for Sadat’s assassination, it is also true that a Jewish right wing extremist was responsible for Rabin’s assassination, that Hindu right wing extremists assassinated Gandhi, etc. Fringe extremists will always exist and do horrible things; that problem is not unique to Islam.
Comment #119 September 27th, 2024 at 2:29 pm
Of course if Trump were to get re-elected, the sad state of the Israeli democracy would no longer be the major concern…
Comment #120 September 27th, 2024 at 2:35 pm
Nate #116: If we’re going to bring in the views of modern biblical scholars, I’ve read many who defend the theory that Judaism, as such, didn’t exist until the Babylonian Exile. Pre-Exile (and among the Jews who remained in Israel after the Assyrian conquest), there was an Israelite religious culture where monotheism was just one position among others, and where worship of Ba’al, Asherah, etc. via idols was often tolerated. Only during the Exile did the defining concept of Judaism solidify, that of a single, abstract God who created the whole universe.
Comment #121 September 27th, 2024 at 2:50 pm
I finished reading the Old and New Testaments and plan to start Asimov soon but one of the many surprises I found was Yahweh’s seeming support for Nebuchadnezzar and the fall of Jerusalem. I was totally surprised. I was also surprised when I found many of the lyrics to the song Rivers of Babylon in one of the Psalms.
Comment #122 September 27th, 2024 at 2:58 pm
Scott,
Just a brief word of solidarity. I am a regular reader, and I support your position about Israel 100%. Thank you for your well-reasoned analysis. It is a light shining against a growing darkness of evil and ignorance.
Tyler
Comment #123 September 27th, 2024 at 3:09 pm
OhMyGoodness #118: So I guess the Psalmist ripped off that song? 😀
Yes, Nebuchadnezzar’s destruction of the Temple and expulsion of (many of) the Jews was a defining catastrophe in the early history of Judaism, which was resolved (like pretty much every subsequent catastrophe…) by saying that God Himself must have been punishing His people for their idolatry, disloyalty, and violations of their covenant with Him.
Notably, this marked a decisive break from what pretty much every other religion would’ve said at the time—namely that if we get conquered by another tribe, it must mean that their god is greater than our god so we should all convert and worship theirs. Some people even call this the beginning, in Western civilization, of the conceptual separation between moral right and worldly power. No biggie, y’know. 😀
Comment #124 September 27th, 2024 at 3:25 pm
Scott #123
Yes, I see that in the record.
Comment #125 September 27th, 2024 at 3:38 pm
Scott #123
“Nebuchadnezzar’s destruction of the Temple […] Some people even call this the beginning, in Western civilization, of the conceptual separation between moral right and worldly power. No biggie, y’know”
While it’s all interconnected with major influences from all over the region, “Western civilization” started with Alexander and then the Roman Republic.
Comment #126 September 27th, 2024 at 4:00 pm
I don’t have a definite answer to this, but: imagine if a terrorist in your country attacked Israel, and in retaliation, a missile intended for the terrorist instead tragically struck innocent civilians, including your children. In such a case, would you solely blame the terrorist?
This is the dilemma many face when considering the conflict, as Israel is receiving sympathy for its own losses, but also facing criticism for collateral damage. I’m from Brazil. Two innocent brazilians were killed in Lebanon this week. What about them? Yes, there were brazilians killed in the Hamas attack. And of course we should also blame Hamas for their deaths.
That said, in the context of events like the IOI, I believe politics should be kept separate. We should allow young people from all nations to shine, contributing to a brighter, more enlightened world.
Comment #127 September 27th, 2024 at 5:18 pm
Scott, is there anything we can do?
Organize a letter from Nobel Laureates, Turing Award winners, and so on?
Comment #128 September 27th, 2024 at 5:25 pm
Why are people bringing up whether or not Israel did something terrible, in this comment section about the IOI team from Israel being banned? I think the point of the post is that it is not relevant whether Israel is in the right of wrong.
Meanwhile, since this is being discussed in comments : I think the pagers, assuming Israel was responsible, shows that Israel went out of the way to avoid attacking civilians in Lebanon. Instead, they targeted people carrying pagers (in today’s world, that’s likely not a civilian). It struck me as brilliant. (On the other side, Oct 7th was a deliberate attack on civilians).
The point I’m trying to make though, is that the Olympiad team has nothing to do with any of this.
Comment #129 September 27th, 2024 at 5:27 pm
Protest the Decision #127: I dunno, maybe a letter signed by hundreds of academic computer scientists and former IOI contestants would help some nonzero amount?
Since this post went up, I’ve been hearing from people who’ve been involved with IOI and who know its internal politics better than I do, and who share my outrage at what happened. But probably the best way I can help those people is simply to use this platform to heap public shame on those responsible for the Judenboykott.
Comment #130 September 27th, 2024 at 5:52 pm
fred #125: I mean, of course you had classical Greece and then the Roman Republic and Empire before Jewish ideas started to seriously influence Western civilization, primarily by way of Christianity. Crucially, though, I don’t see either the Greeks or (certainly) the Romans as having ever clearly repudiated the doctrine of “might makes right,” in any way that stuck—with the single striking exception of Socrates.
Comment #131 September 27th, 2024 at 6:06 pm
Ilija #4: a ten-second online search of your claim reveals it to be false propaganda from Putin.
Comment #132 September 27th, 2024 at 6:11 pm
Scott,
Albert Einstein said a few similar things in his letters and memoirs. Before the Nazis, other Germans would approach him about baptism, not because they particularly believed they were convincing him of the truth but because they’d have liked him to become “fully one of [them].” In his recollection it was that which brought to an end his identity as a German atheist and replaced it with a new one that isn’t so easy to describe in anything but the first person. You may be interested in reading about what he had to say and what had been happening to him.
Comment #133 September 27th, 2024 at 6:34 pm
This a tough one for me. For almost a year now, the USA and other countries have been trying to negotiate a cease-fire in Gaza for basic humanitarian reasons. There are international laws against what is happening to innocents in Gaza. Israel has a right to fight back, but not to commit war crimes. Non-violent sanctions against Israel seem to be the world’s only recourse at this point. The intent which I would concur with is not against Jews or Israeli citizens, but against the current war policy of the Israeli government. I am aware there is also long-standing tribalism discrimination involved, which i don’t support.
There have been and will be protests against USA government actions also. I am reminded of something from the current HBO documentary, “Steve Van Zandt: Disciple”, when (approximately 50 years ago) he was touring in Germany, and was asked, “Why are you putting missiles in our country?” This puzzled him until he realized he was not being asked as a rock musician, but as an American (North). His reaction then was, “I never thought of myself as an American. I’m from New Jersey!”
Comment #134 September 27th, 2024 at 8:24 pm
While we’re at it, does anyone know if the Palestinians are also boycotted from attending IOI? Surely, their persistent decades of war crimes, horrific human rights violation, mass rape, missiles on civilians, executions, LGBTQ oppression, and their indefensible invasion of Israel last year should merit a boycott, ain’t it so?
Comment #135 September 27th, 2024 at 11:51 pm
Actress Noa Tishby wrote
“I have a question for you, keffiyeh Karen from campus: where would you prefer to be a woman? in Iran? In Afghanistan? or in Israel?”
Certainly not in Iran, nor in Afghanistan…
but, not offense, certainly not in Williamsburg, Brooklyn either… spending the rest of my life after marriage dragging 7, 8, or 9 kids around while wearing a wig all year round doesn’t exactly fit my vision of ideal female emancipation any better.
Comment #136 September 28th, 2024 at 7:40 am
fred #135: Do you acknowledge the obvious difference that the woman in Williamsburg is free to leave? Firstly because she lives in the US, but secondly because Orthodox Judaism has never even had the concept of hunting down and killing its “infidels”? She’ll be dead to her former community, but otherwise free to become a Baptist or atheist or Reform Jew and have a nice life. There are whole communities of former Orthodox (I know people in them), and organizations that help people get out if they want to. It’s still a hard journey for those who take it—the more so for those with spouses or children who want to stay—but I wish that women in Iran or Afghanistan had 1% as much freedom.
Comment #137 September 28th, 2024 at 9:08 am
Everyone: I’m closing this thread today, since the comments (many of them left in moderation) have started succumbing to the same entropy that’s afflicted every Israel/Palestine thread in the history of the world (“why do you support murdering children?”).
Mostly, this post was helpful in putting me in touch with people who know the deep corruption that drove the IOI’s decision (eg, not letting Israel speak in its own defense) and who are ready to pressure the organization to reverse itself. But thanks to everyone here who participated in good faith.
Comment #138 September 28th, 2024 at 11:04 am
Scott #62:
I’m sure everyone already knows this, but wanted to pop in and mention that you got one more item from your wishlist:
> – Elimination of Sinwar and the remaining Hamas leadership
> – Elimination of Nasrallah and remaining Hezbollah leadership
Nasrallah was indeed eliminated, along with much of the Hezbollah leadership.
There are rumors about Sinwar but there’s no concrete reason to think he’s been killed yet.
Comment #139 September 28th, 2024 at 11:17 am
i stopped after zionists are ‘almost all jews’ get out of your bubble
Comment #140 September 28th, 2024 at 12:32 pm
A word of support before you close this, typed very quickly and with no revisions (sorry!):
It pains me to see my Israeli and Jewish friends feeling isolated and apprehensive these days. Banning Israel from this competition is bullshit.
But also Israelis need to reign in their extremists.
I always tell my Arab friends that the main task of arab intellectuals these days is to reign in their own extremists, since focusing their effort on criticism of Israel just fuels the flames.
Personally I don’t see Israel or Jews under any threat in the future. Yes, that’s contrary to history but we are not in a historically typical situation. I think Israel is rather on a trajectory to becoming a super power acquiring large swathes of territory on the way. This could happen either with a massive war in which millions die or without. The deciding factor between these two possibilities will be wether the same thing that happened in Iran in 1979 repeats in the green “blessing” area, as the man puts it. I prefer that it happens without, and I feel offended by those who don’t have a preference.
Also, Arabs are very compassionate, so it’s a shame that they were not able to sympathize with the jewish survivors of ww2, or with their own Jewish populations, but I can hardly fault them for it (for reasons I don’t have time to type out). Which other nation of the time would have agreed to something like this imposed by what they viewed as a tyrannical invader (Britain). Read about the Urabi revolt (you might find Yaqub Sanu to be of independent interest!)
Be gentle and remember that enlightenment does not come from above (certainly not via aerial bombardment). Americans for example indulged in the worst possible human behaviour but given enough time they were able to correct their moral compass.
Comment #141 September 28th, 2024 at 12:45 pm
Theorist Israel #134
No. Israel is the third and currently last country to be boycotted from the IOI after Russia and Belarus in 2022. Also, I’m pretty sure most of not all of the participants from the Palestinian team are from the West Bank and not Gaza so it’s not very fair to punish them for what their extremist brothers in the west did.
Comment #142 September 28th, 2024 at 1:14 pm
asdf #139: From survey data, it seems clear that ~90% of Jews count as “Zionists” worthy of banning and exclusion to the Keffiyeh Karens of the world (a “Zionist,” once again, is just anyone who wants Israel to continue to exist rather than being wiped from the face of the earth). Many of the remaining ~10% are under the delusion that, once Israel is destroyed and its 7 million Jews (or those who’ve survived) are made into stateless refugees once more, antisemites will then have nothing further to be angry about so will stop being antisemites. These “AsAJews” don’t often stop to consider what the situation was before Israel existed. Being Jewish, just like being a commenter on a quantum computing blog, has (alas) never been mutually exclusive with being a complete fucking idiot.
Comment #143 September 28th, 2024 at 1:23 pm
JimV #133
“There are international laws against what is happening to innocents in Gaza. Israel has a right to fight back, but not to commit war crimes.”
I’m pretty sure Israel stayed mostly within the limit of the international law. The civilian casualty to targeted combatant ratio is under the 1:1 cited in Theorist Israel’s comment #13, targeting otherwise protected building and vehicles is allowed if they are used by combatant opponents, or when you have a good reason to think so (the Shifa hospital was a legal target to raid since it was used as Hamas headquarters, attacking ambulances was fine when they were used to transport healthy terrorists and weapons instead of sick people, and destroying buildings like schools and religious buildings is legal if there are weapons stored in their basements). The issue with humanitarian aid is indeed more complicated, but much of it, in my opinion, stems from the difficulty of providing humanitarian aid to an urban warfare zone in general, and many other governments oversee much worse humanitarian crises (the first one that comes to mind is Syria) and yet I don’t see them get as many attention in the public news as Israel – “no Jews, no news”.
Of course I don’t excuse blatant abuses like what happened in Sde Teman last month, but this was not an IDF order but rather some individual disgusting soldiers who decided to do that on their own and AFAIK are currently in trial for what they have done.
Comment #144 September 28th, 2024 at 2:11 pm
Roee #143: Can you explain why they blew up World Central Kitchen workers? Were they transporting terrorists in their clearly marked vehicles? How many examples of this kind do you need, because you can Google a practically unlimited number of these (or I can enumerate one after another until any reasonable mind is convinced). Even if, as you say, “Israel stayed mostly within the limit of the international law,” that implies they’ve been in violation of the international law by the definition of “mostly.”
Comment #145 September 28th, 2024 at 2:52 pm
Scott, this was an excellent post and discussion. Its value lies in demonstrating support for Israel. Many undecided commenters on this post from the West have been misled by their own misunderstandings of the Middle East (excluding the mostly non-Western hostile commenters, who may harbor personal animosity towards Israel). They speak out against supposed ‘war crimes’ and call for Israel to exercise more ‘restraint in its self-defense’. However, they fail to grasp the critical point: this is not akin to the U.S. in Afghanistan, the Allies in Iraq, or Russia in Ukraine. For Israel, this is a matter of life-or-death. If it doesn’t win this conflict, its existence in the mid-term is at serious risk.
Comment #146 September 28th, 2024 at 3:33 pm
Anonymous #140:
> But also Israelis need to reign in their extremists.
Absolutely.
> Personally I don’t see Israel or Jews under any threat in the future. Yes, that’s contrary to history but we are not in a historically typical situation.
Clearly Israel *is* under threat, since Iran is attempting to become a nuclear state while explicitly stating it as their goal to destroy Israel. And putting their money where their mouth is by funding groups to fight Israel.
> I think Israel is rather on a trajectory to becoming a super power acquiring large swathes of territory on the way.
Large swathes of territory? Israel has no interest in acquiring more territory, unless you’re talking about the settlers trying to get more land from the West Bank.
Have you even seen a map of Israel compared to all other states in the region? Israel is *tiny*. It comprises 0.1% of the Middle East. It’s given up territory *4 times its size* in order to sign peace with Egypt. Israel is certainly powerful militarily, but this idea that Israel is out to get more territory just does not make even a bit of sense.
> Also, Arabs are very compassionate, so it’s a shame that they were not able to sympathize with the jewish survivors of ww2, or with their own Jewish populations, but I can hardly fault them for it (for reasons I don’t have time to type out).
You can’t fault them for not feeling compassionate for their own Jewish populations, which they treated poorly before, in most cases, forcing them out of the country? That’s a shame.
Comment #147 September 28th, 2024 at 3:37 pm
Scott: sorry that my “note of support” ended up containing mostly unfiltered thoughts. Focus on the first few lines please!!
Comment #148 August 20th, 2026 at 7:26 pm
[…] That 17-year-old intentionally forfeiting his gold medal by wearing an Israeli flag while the medal was announced, defying the IOI’s boycott of Israel (for background on this boycott, see my post from 2024). […]