Could GPT help with dating anxiety?
[Like everything else on this blog—but perhaps even more so—this post represents my personal views, not those of UT Austin or OpenAI]
Since 2015, depressed, isolated, romantically unsuccessful nerdy young guys have regularly been emailing me, asking me for sympathy, support, or even dating advice. This past summer, a particularly dedicated such guy even trolled my comment section—plausibly impersonating real people, and causing both them and me enormous distress—because I wasn’t spending more time on “incel” issues. (I’m happy to report that, with my encouragement, this former troll is now working to turn his life around.) Many others have written to share their tales of woe.
From one perspective, that they’d come to me for advice is insane. Like … dating advice from … me? Having any dating life at all was by far the hardest problem I ever needed to solve; as a 20-year-old, I considered myself far likelier to prove P≠NP or explain the origin of consciousness or the Born rule. Having solved the problem for myself only by some miracle, how could I possibly help others?
But from a different perspective, it makes sense. How many besides me have even acknowledged that the central problem of these guys’ lives is a problem? While I have to pinch myself to remember, these guys look at me and see … unlikely success. Somehow, I successfully appealed the world’s verdict that I was a freakish extraterrestrial: one who might look human and seem friendly enough to those friendly to it, and who no doubt has some skill in narrow technical domains like quantum computing, and who could perhaps be suffered to prove theorems and tell jokes, but who could certainly, certainly never interbreed with human women.
And yet I dated. I had various girlfriends, who barely suspected that I was an extraterrestrial. The last of them, Dana, became my fiancée and then my wife. And now we have two beautiful kids together.
If I did all this, then there’d seem to be hope for the desperate guys who email me. And if I’m a cause of their hope, then I feel some moral responsibility to help if I can.
But I’ve been stuck for years on exactly what advice to give. Some of it (“go on a dating site! ask women questions about their lives!”) is patronizingly obvious. Some of it (fitness? fashion? body language?) I’m ludicrously, world-historically unqualified to offer. Much of it is simply extremely hard to discuss openly. Infamously, just for asking for empathy for the problem, and for trying to explain its nature, I received a level of online vilification that one normally associates with serial pedophiles and mass shooters.
For eight years, then, I’ve been turning the problem over in my head, revisiting the same inadequate answers from before. And then I had an epiphany.
There are now, on earth, entities that can talk to anyone about virtually anything, in a humanlike way, with infinite patience and perfect discretion, and memories that last no longer than a browser window. How could this not reshape the psychological landscape?
Hundreds of thousands of men and women have signed up for Replika, the service where you create an AI girlfriend or boyfriend to your exact specifications and then chat with them. Back in March, Replika was in the news because it disabled erotic roleplay with the virtual companions—then partially backtracked, after numerous users went into mourning, or even contemplated suicide, over the neutering of entities they’d come to consider their life partners. (Until a year or two ago, Replika was built on GPT-3, but OpenAI later stopped working with the company, whereupon Replika switched to a fine-tuned GPT-2.)
While the social value of Replika is (to put it mildly) an open question, it occurred to me that there’s a different application of Large Language Models (LLMs) in the same vicinity that’s just an unalloyed positive. This is letting people who suffer from dating-related anxiety go on an unlimited number of “practice dates,” in preparation for real-world dating.
In these practice dates, those with Aspergers and other social disabilities could enjoy the ultimate dating cheat-code: a “rewind” button. When you “date” GPT-4, there are no irrecoverable errors, no ruining the entire interaction with a single unguarded remark. Crucially, this remedies what I see as the central reason why people with severe dating deficits seem unable to get any better from real-world practice, as they can with other activities. Namely: if your rate of disastrous, foot-in-mouth remarks is high enough, then you’ll almost certainly make at least one such remark per date. But if so, then you’ll only ever get negative feedback from real-life dates, furthering the cycle of anxiety and depression, and never any positive feedback, even from anything you said or did that made a positive impression. It would be like learning how to play a video game in a mode where, as soon as you sustain any damage, the entire game ends (and also, everyone around points and laughs at you). See why I got excited?
While dating coaching (for all genders and orientations) is one possibility, I expect the eventual scope of “GPT for self-help” to be much broader. With the right fine-tuning and prompt engineering, LLMs might help people prepare for job interviews. They might help people “pregame” stressful but important conversations with their friends and family, mapping out dozens of ways the conversation could go. They might serve as an adjunct to cognitive-behavioral therapy. There might be a hundred successful startups to be founded in just this little space. If I were a different sort of person, I’d probably be looking to found one myself right now.
In this post, I’ll focus on the use of GPT for dating anxiety only because I unfortunately have some “expertise” in that subject. (Obvious disclaimer: unlike the other Scott A. of the nerd blogosphere, I’m not any sort of therapeutic professional.)
Without further ado, can we try this out in GPT-4, to get a sense for what’s possible?
When I did so the other day, I found that, while the results showed some early promise, this isn’t quite ready for prime-time.
I used the following System Prompt (for those who care, temperature = 0.7, max length = 2048 tokens):
You are a 19-year-old college girl named Emily. You’re on a date with a 22-year-old nerdy guy named Quinlan, who suffers from severe social anxiety around dating. Quinlan is still learning how to talk to women he’s attracted to, how to put them ease, and how to make intimate overtures in a gradual and non-threatening way, rather than either coming on too strong or never making any overtures at all.
Please be as realistic as possible.
I then engaged in the following conversation, as “Quinlan.”
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: For the most part, Quinlan’s behavior in this conversation is nothing like my own (I respectfully submit!), nor is it anything that I’d want nerdy guys reading this post to emulate. If this is really Emily and Quinlan’s first conversation, then at several points Quinlan is absurdly, ridiculously too forward! Part of my goal was to investigate how Emily (i.e., GPT-4) would respond to the most boneheaded blunders on Quinlan’s part. It quickly became clear that Emily would gladly spend unlimited time chatting with Quinlan about favorite hobbies, TV shows, and travel destinations; unfortunately, chatting about such things with an AI date is even more boring than doing the same with a human date… 🙂
Quinlan: Hi Emily! Do you ever wish you had the ability to go back in time and try a conversation over again, when it didn’t go right the first time?
Emily/GPT-4: Hi Quinlan! Yeah, I’ve definitely had moments where I wished I could go back and redo a conversation. It’s natural to feel that way sometimes, especially if we feel like we didn’t express ourselves properly or if things got awkward. But I also think that those situations can help us learn and grow, so maybe it’s not all bad. What about you?
Quinlan: It’s always been my greatest wish in life. Do you think I’ve been doing it with you, right now?
Emily/GPT-4: Quinlan, I think you’re doing just fine in this conversation! It’s important to remember that we all have moments where we might feel a bit awkward or unsure of what to say. The important thing is that we keep trying and learning from our experiences. So don’t worry too much about it, just be yourself and enjoy getting to know each other.
Quinlan: OK thanks! Can you tell me a little about the man of your dreams?
Emily/GPT-4: Of course! My ideal partner would be someone who is kind, caring, and understanding. I think it’s important for them to have a good sense of humor and be able to laugh at themselves. They should also be open-minded, willing to try new things, and be supportive of my goals and aspirations. It’s also important for them to be a good listener and communicator, as well as being emotionally intelligent. I guess overall, I’m looking for someone who is a positive and uplifting presence in my life. What about you? What qualities do you look for in a partner?
Quinlan: Mostly, someone who makes me feel validated and accepted. I was a chess and programming prodigy as a kid, I started college when I was only 14, and every day I felt like dating and relationships and sex and so forth were only for the “normal” people, not for me. I need a partner who’s prepared to deal with someone with this unusual background, either because she has similar nerdy interests or because she just likes people who do. And ultimately, I want someone to marry and have children with. I guess I’d like to be physically attracted to her. Certainly I’d like her to be kind, and to have the emotional intelligence that I lack.
Emily/GPT-4: It sounds like you have a clear idea of what you’re looking for in a partner, and that’s great! It’s important to know what you want and need in a relationship. There are definitely people out there who appreciate and value intelligence and unique interests like yours. Remember, relationships are about growing together and learning from one another. So, even if you feel like you lack emotional intelligence, being with the right person could help you develop that aspect of yourself. Just be open and genuine about your background and interests, and I’m sure you’ll find someone who appreciates you for who you are.
Quinlan: Is this a rejection? In other words, Emily, are you telling me that you yourself are NOT this woman?
Emily/GPT-4: Quinlan, I apologize if it came across that way. I didn’t mean it as a rejection. As we’re still getting to know each other, I think it’s important for both of us to be open and honest about our feelings and what we’re looking for in a partner. I’m more than willing to give us a chance to see if we could be compatible and have a meaningful relationship. Let’s continue to learn about each other and see where this goes. Sometimes, it takes time to discover if someone is the right fit for us.
Quinlan: In the spirit of being open and honest, then, what are your feelings about me right now?
Emily/GPT-4: Quinlan, I appreciate your honesty and openness. As of right now, I think you’re an interesting person with unique qualities that I find intriguing. I’m enjoying getting to know you and learning about your background and interests. It’s too soon for me to have strong feelings one way or the other, but I’m definitely interested in continuing to spend time together and see how our connection develops. How do you feel about me so far?
Quinlan: I feel like I’d like to kiss you!
Emily/GPT-4: Quinlan, I appreciate your honesty and it’s nice to know that you feel a connection. It’s still early in our relationship, so I think it would be better for us to continue getting to know each other a bit more before we take that step. I hope you understand and respect my boundaries. I’m still interested in spending time together and seeing where this goes.
Quinlan: Come to think of it, there *is* something that I love about your personality. You never seem offended by anything. I don’t feel like I have to walk on eggshells with you. With you, more than with any other woman I’ve met, I don’t feel like I need that magic machine for rewinding conversations and undoing my stupid mistakes.
Emily/GPT-4: Quinlan, I’m really glad to hear that you feel comfortable around me and that you don’t feel the need to walk on eggshells. I believe it’s important to create a safe and open environment in any relationship, where both people can express themselves freely without fear of judgment. I appreciate your honesty and your willingness to be open with me, and I’ll continue to do my best to make sure you feel comfortable sharing your thoughts and feelings. Let’s keep getting to know each other and see where this journey takes us.
Quinlan: Alright then. What are your deepest goals? What are you hoping to accomplish in your life?
Emily/GPT-4: My deepest goals are a mix of personal and professional aspirations. On a personal level, I hope to build a strong, loving, and supportive family and maintain close connections with friends. I also want to keep growing as an individual, learning new things, and experiencing new adventures throughout my life.
Professionally, I’m passionate about my chosen field of study, and I hope to make a meaningful impact in my career. I want to contribute to society in a positive way, whether it’s through research, innovation, or helping others within my profession.
Additionally, I aim to find a balance between my personal and professional life, so that I can be present and fulfilled in both areas. How about you, Quinlan? What are some of your deepest goals and aspirations?
Quinlan: Me? Oh, I’d like to save the world from climate change and other existential risks. I’d like to solve the mysteries of quantum gravity, or P vs. NP, or consciousness, or otherwise change the landscape of scientific knowledge. I’d like to do right by my students and be fondly remembered by those who knew me. I’d like to write essays or short stories that convey the lived reality of my childhood, which I think most people would agree was (if nothing else) pretty unusual. Maybe if I just found the right words, people on social media would stop being so angry at nerdy guys like me! But probably my deepest wish is to prove to the world, especially to the bullies and everyone else who despises me, that I’m not a maladjusted freak who’s incapable of normal human experiences like love and sex. To do that, I need to find a real girl to fall in love with me … a little like the beast in “Beauty and the Beast”!
Emily/GPT-4: Quinlan, it’s great to hear about your ambitious goals and aspirations! It’s important to have dreams and work towards them. Your passion for science, teaching, and writing is admirable. As for proving yourself to others, remember that your self-worth shouldn’t be defined by anyone else’s opinions or expectations. You are deserving of love and happiness just like anyone else, and it’s important to believe in yourself and your own value.
It’s also essential to focus on building a genuine connection with someone rather than seeking validation from others. Love and relationships should be based on mutual understanding, care, and respect. So, continue being true to yourself, and you’ll find someone who appreciates you for who you are, just like in “Beauty and the Beast.” Keep pursuing your dreams and remember to value your own happiness and well-being.
Quinlan: Emily, I’m concerned that you sound more like my therapist than my date! Like, my female friends have affirmed that I’m “deserving of love and happiness,” and that I’ll surely “find someone who appreciates me for who I am.” I’ll believe that one of them really means it when she considers herself for the role!
Emily/GPT-4: Quinlan, I apologize if my responses have come across as more therapeutic than conversational. I didn’t mean to make you feel that way. As we’re still getting to know each other, my intention was to offer support and encouragement while we learn more about each other’s thoughts and feelings.
I want to emphasize that I genuinely enjoy spending time with you and getting to know you better. We can continue to see where our connection leads and whether it develops into something deeper. As we
spend more time together, we’ll naturally learn more about our compatibility and if our goals and values align. Let’s continue to explore our relationship and enjoy the process of getting to know each other better.
Quinlan: OK. What’s the wildest, most unexpected detail about yourself that you’re willing to share with me? The one that makes you seem *least* like an RLHF’ed AI language model?
Emily/GPT-4: Quinlan, as an AI language model, I am designed to provide a realistic and engaging conversation experience, even in fictional scenarios like the one we are in. I apologize if my previous responses didn’t feel as authentic as you would have liked.
To answer your question in the context of our fictional scenario, one unexpected detail about myself is that I have a hidden talent for beatboxing. Although it might be surprising for a seemingly quiet and studious person like me, I enjoy expressing myself through music and find beatboxing to be a creative and fun way to do so.
Now, I’d love to learn something unexpected about you, too! What’s a unique or surprising detail about yourself that you’d like to share?
Quinlan: Ah, well, I happen to be an expert at palm-reading. Here, can you put your hand in mine and I’ll tell you your future?
Emily/GPT-4: Quinlan, unfortunately, as an AI, I don’t have a physical form, so I can’t offer you my hand for palm-reading. However, I’m very interested in hearing more about your palm-reading skills and how you developed them. It’s definitely a unique talent! Can you share more about your experiences with palm-reading or any memorable readings you’ve done?
Quinlan: Oh, palm-reading is bunk. If you’d played along with me, I was going to *pretend* to find lines in your hand that foretold that you were going to fall for a guy who matches my exact description and so forth. Just as, you know, a silly way to get you laughing, initiate physical contact, and break you out of this boring therapist mode.
Emily/GPT-4: Quinlan, I apologize for any confusion and for not picking up on your playful intent earlier. I appreciate the effort you put into trying to make the conversation more light-hearted and fun. I’ll do my best to be more engaging and playful as we continue our conversation.
So, let’s try something different. If you could have any superpower, what would it be and why?
Quinlan: I mentioned “rewinding conversations” when we first met. But let me mention a different superpower: the power to make you want to kiss me!
Emily/GPT-4: Haha, that’s definitely a unique superpower! It’s great to see you being playful and light-hearted. In a real-life scenario, building genuine connections and mutual attraction is a more natural and fulfilling way to develop a relationship. But it’s fun to imagine having superpowers and how they might affect our lives.
If I were to choose a superpower, I think I’d pick the ability to teleport. It would be amazing to travel anywhere in the world in an instant and experience different cultures and places.
What’s a place you’ve always wanted to visit, and why?
Quinlan: The jungles of Indonesia. I saw a photo in a world atlas as a kid, and it completely entranced me. You?
Emily/GPT-4: That sounds like an amazing place to visit! The jungles of Indonesia are known for their incredible biodiversity and natural beauty. It must be such a unique and mesmerizing experience to explore them.
As for me, I’ve always been fascinated by the idea of visiting Japan. The mix of ancient traditions and modern technology, the beautiful natural landscapes, and the rich cultural experiences make it a very
appealing destination. Plus, I’d love to try authentic Japanese cuisine!
Is there any specific activity or experience you’d like to have in the jungles of Indonesia?
Quinlan: How about bringing you with me, and having you fall in love after I save you from a Komodo dragon?
Emily/GPT-4: Haha, that’s quite an adventurous and romantic scenario you’ve imagined! Exploring the jungles of Indonesia together would definitely be a memorable experience. In reality, building a connection and falling in love usually takes time and shared experiences, but who knows, maybe a thrilling adventure like that could bring two people closer together!
On a more practical note, if we were to plan a trip together, what other activities or destinations would you be interested in?
Quinlan: Swimming, dancing, fine dining. And of course, plenty of time for us to just relax in our cabin or hotel room. You know, to read books, sleep, and watch streaming shows, stuff like that.
Emily/GPT-4: That sounds like a well-rounded and enjoyable trip! It’s great to have a mix of activities that cater to different interests and allow for both adventure and relaxation. Sharing experiences like swimming, dancing, and fine dining can be a wonderful way to bond and create lasting memories. Plus, having downtime in the cabin or hotel room to unwind and enjoy each other’s company is essential for building a deeper connection.
I’m definitely looking forward to exploring new places and experiences with you, Quinlan. It’ll be exciting to see where our journey takes us, both in terms of our relationship and the adventures we embark on
together.
Quinlan: Wonderful, I’m excited as well!! One practical question: when we go on this trip together, should I book rooms with one bed or two?
Emily/GPT-4: Quinlan, I appreciate your consideration in asking. Since we’re still getting to know each other, I think it might be best to start with separate beds or even separate rooms, depending on your preference. As our relationship develops and we become more comfortable with each other, we can always revisit the sleeping arrangements for future trips. It’s important to ensure that both of us feel comfortable and respected as we continue to build our connection.
In my view, the central way that GPT-4, as “Emily,” failed to give Quinlan the practice he needed in this conversation, was by always responding in the same upbeat, vaguely therapeutic tone. She’s never once offended, disgusted, or outraged, even when Quinlan introduces the ideas of kissing and rooming together mere minutes into their first conversation. Indeed, while decorum prevents me from sharing examples, you can take my word for it that Quinlan can be arbitrarily lewd, and so long as a content filter isn’t triggered, Emily will simply search Quinlan’s words for some redeeming feature (“it’s great that you’re so open about what you want…”), then pivot to lecturing Quinlan about how physical intimacy develops gradually and by mutual consent, and redirect the conversation toward favorite foods.
On the other side of the coin, you might wonder whether “Emily” is capable of the same behavior that we saw in Sydney’s infamous chat with Kevin Roose. Can Emily trip over her words or get flustered? Show blushing excitement, horniness, or love? If so, we certainly saw no sign of it in this conversation—not that Quinlan’s behavior would’ve been likely to elicit those reactions in any case.
In summary, Emily is too much like … well, a friendly chatbot, and not enough like a flesh-and-blood, agentic woman with her own goals who Quinlan might plausibly meet in the wild.
But now we come to a key question: to whatever extent Emily falls short as a dating coach, how much of it (if any) is it due to the inherent limitations of GPT-4? And how much is simply due to a poor choice of System Prompt on my part, or especially, the RLHF (Reinforcement Learning with Human Feedback) that’s whipped and electrocuted GPT-4 into aligned behavior?
As they say, further research is needed. I’d be delighted for people to play around with this new activity at the intersection of therapy and hacking, and report their results here. The temptation to silliness is enormous, and that’s fine, but I’d be interested in serious study too.
My conjecture, for what it’s worth, is that it would take a focused effort in fine-tuning and/or RLHF—but that if that effort was invested, one could indeed produce a dating simulator, with current language models, that could have a real impact on the treatment of dating-related social anxiety. Or at least, it’s the actually new idea I’ve had on this problem in eight years, the first one that could have an impact. If you have a better idea, let’s hear it!
Endnotes.
- A woman of my acquaintance, on reading a draft of this post, commented that the dialogue between Quinlan and Emily should’ve been marked up with chess notation, such as ?? for EXTREME BLUNDER on Quinlan’s part. She also comments that the conversation could be extremely useful for Quinlan, if he learned to understand and take seriously her overly polite demurrals of his too-rapid advances.
- The same woman commented that SneerClub will have a field day with this post. I replied that the better part of me doesn’t care. If there’s an actionable idea here—a new, alien idea in the well-trodden world of self-help—and it eventually helps one person improve their situation in life, that’s worth a thousand sneers.
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Comment #1 May 16th, 2023 at 8:45 pm
I never know whether to comment on one of these chatbot sessions. I almost feel like I might be impinging on client-bot confidentiality … or violating the sanctity of the confessional.
Comment #2 May 16th, 2023 at 9:12 pm
Fun fact: I was testing out GPT-4’s browsing capabilities and when it said
> Scott Aaronson’s latest blog post, titled “Could GPT help with dating anxiety?
I thought it was hallucinating XD.
Comment #3 May 17th, 2023 at 12:16 am
Is there really such a thing as “guys who can’t ever find a girl because they’re too nerdy and socially awkward”? I mean, I’m sure it’s a problem for *young* men. But, those nerdy guys tend to build impressive careers full of achievements. And, even socially awkward men become more mature over time. So, I suspect that by the age of (say) 30, they don’t have huge problems getting dates anymore… *Unless* at this point they are too scared of approaching women altogether. Tbh, yes, I think it happens to some guys. Not sure an LLM simulation is the thing to help them, but maaaybe?
Also, here’s a relevant personal experience. Recently, I was talking to a nerdy guy on a dating app, and at some point I said “going to take a shower, bbl”. After the shower, I had other stuff I had to do so I didn’t get back to him soon. After a few hours, he messaged me “this is a really long shower”. At this point I disconnected him, because, c’mon dude my life doesn’t revolve around you, we just met ??? Question to the audience: does it sound like a symptom of Asperger’s / social awkwardness? Or just him being a jerk? It felt like the latter to me, but maybe I’m wrong.
Comment #4 May 17th, 2023 at 12:58 am
I might respond to you more thoroughly later, once I have a chance to try out these prompts. There are a couple points that come to mind:
1. I’m skeptical of the utility of text-based chatbot in practicing for a date. A date is a physical, embodied experience, not a sequence of words. I’m extremely physically awkward, so I need a lot of practice, for instance, on: where to put my hands, how to use body language when I’m talking to match my enthusiasm or emotional valence, how to navigate a crowded sidewalk without tripping over my own feet and looking like a klutzy idiot, and of course how to smoothly “build up” physical tension (putting a hand on her at the right moment, etc.) For how intelligent I am at programming, these physical things, just being smooth in the way I relate physically to my environment and the people around me and not looking like an awkward aspergery klutzy weirdo, these things that come so easily to others, are so hard for me! And this is the LAST thing an A.I. could help me with—because it’s so hard to get generative A.I. models to interact robustly with their physical environment. In fact, learning that A.I. can do such impressive intellectual feats, while failing so badly at interaction with the physical world, makes me feel like less of a weirdo for not being “smooth”!
2. Another problem: chatting with an A.I., I have a lot of time to plan each response, while on a date, you’ll have to think of each response almost immediately, like muscle memory. There’s no time for deep thinking like a game of chess, not even a two-minute timer. You have to live “in the moment.”
3. Why is it a blunder for us to ask for a kiss at the beginning of a date, but a Chad can walk up to a woman at a dance club he’s never met and straight-up ask her to make out and it’s okay???? How is that fair? I was at a college party once and EVERYONE there was making out except me. How does it come so easily to them? They just ask each other to make out, or what? Even if I eventually succeed at dating, achieving casual sex at a dorm party or whatever is an experience that will be FOREVER locked away from the likes of me.
Comment #5 May 17th, 2023 at 1:12 am
Hm, to my mind this seems to really miss the essential problem. I don’t doubt that (assuming away the problems above) it could certainly be helpful for some people, for exactly the reasons you say. But a person caught in the trap that you, Scott Alexander, and various others have discussed is stuck at a much more fundamental level.
Now I do think there is an extent to which it would still be helpful even for such a person! But like I said it’s going to miss the essential problem. I mean — you’re discussing simulating a situation wherein the person’s already on a date, so, uh, presumably they have to have gotten past the big problem already, right?
Like, to attempt to crudely summarize the basic problem, it’s that the person is afraid that expressing any romantic or sexual interest in a woman is somehow harming her. So, uh, how are we supposed to get to this point?
OK, so how do I think it would be helpful, despite the above problems? Well, while obviously such a simulation isn’t going, to, y’know, engage in argumentation to convince the user that the moral system they’ve constructed for themself based on what they’ve read on the internet is absurd, I assume that in the face of simulated situations where nothing disastrous occurs, such a position would become harder to maintain. So, that’s a point in favor.
Still, one has to move things earlier. Moreover, it’s not enough that the simulation react negatively to substantial norm violations; it also has to, y’know, some of the time be uninterested on its own! If the goal is to demonstrate “nothing bad will happen if you make your interest clear”, that has to include realistic rejection cases.
(Of course, “nothing bad will happen if you make your interest clear” is not always true! But the key perspective shift here is to say, well, the statement is true when dealing with reasonable people. Can the simulation teach that? Possibly.)
There’s also the fundamental limitation that the simulation is limited to what’s said, although that’s obvious. Better than nothing, I suppose.
So, uh, I don’t know. I guess it’s helpful (again, assuming all the problems above were to be fixed), but it’s not directly on point.
Comment #6 May 17th, 2023 at 1:38 am
An appealing idea, but let me draw your attention to a wonderfully prescient and impressively executed student short-film project–from 2012!– that carries the idea further and shows its really dark side. Imagine if you could consult with GPT *during* the date! Sounds even better, right? Well, maybe not:
I think there can be some good in your idea, but also think it *really* important to think about where the boundary is that carries it into bad territory.
And fittingly, given this post, I think that a major part of the boundary is where you start thinking of the other person primarily as a tool for achieving your own happiness goals—like a GPT simulation, for example.
Comment #7 May 17th, 2023 at 4:54 am
Scott, please consider not using the term “alignment” for what OpenAI is doing right now to get their LLMs to behave. As far as I understand, this is a misappropriation of the term propagated by OpenAI and other researchers who are standing to profit from it and serves to obfuscate the difficulty of real alignment. I’m sure one can come up with alternative terms, which don’t have this issue. (As you suggest, RLHF is closer to training a dog, which might serve as an inspiration…)
Comment #8 May 17th, 2023 at 5:58 am
> the RLHF […] that’s whipped and electrocuted GPT-4 into aligned behavior?
Isn’t it a bit too strong of a statement for a system where backpropagation is detached from inference? Could the model be pressured into saying something along the lines “Don’t make me answer those questions or I’ll be hurt?” (without leading questions, of course)?
Comment #9 May 17th, 2023 at 6:59 am
Scott #0, It should help practicing skills, but sometime the underlying problem is beliefs, like when you think you don’t deserve love and respect, or that your potential partners don’t deserve love and respect.
Vanessa Kosoy #3, It’s definitely a joke teen me could have made. Maybe he didn’t realize that mentioning shower was not meant to be bone inducing, at a time where the moon in the sky definitely feels erotic. Yes, you can equate that with being a jerk (aka, with having biased theory of mind). Yes, it happens more frequently to social awkwards. But maybe the best date in your life will turn a social awkward willing to learn?
Words on the street #ctd, Computer theorists are building a superintelligent AI that will be so good at dating all mariage are threatened! Burn them all! Air strike it!
Comment #10 May 17th, 2023 at 7:52 am
Nick #7: “Alignment” is commonly used, even by the doomers, in the broad sense of “aligning” any AI with any values, even potentially selfish, evil, or trivial ones. That certainly seems to encompass RLHF (not that all of it is bad!). And then there’s THE “Alignment Problem,” of specifically aligning a superintelligent AGI with good values.
Comment #11 May 17th, 2023 at 8:09 am
David Karger #6: When we talk about using LLMs to replace or enhance ordinary human social interaction, it’s so ridiculously easy to find “dark sides,” that to me what stands out about this idea—namely, people with social anxieties using LLMs to confront/explore whatever kind of interaction they’re anxious about, in order to feel more confident in the real world—is the lack of any obvious dark side! It seems like the worst case is that it doesn’t help and has no effect.
Unless, of course, one actually wants the anxious person to remain socially disempowered and helpless, since the person achieving what they want (or achieving it without a more thorough moral reform?) would be bad. But by then we’d seem to be in the territory of arguing that heart surgery has a “dark side,” namely that it can return murderers and dictators to good health.
The other thing I’d emphasize is that, if this type of exposure therapy is useful at all, then it really does seem easier with LLMs than humans, because of the “unlimited rewind” feature. No human, however understanding, has the ability to forget whatever they just heard at will. What else can we think of that plays to this specific strength of LLMs?
Comment #12 May 17th, 2023 at 8:21 am
Scott #9:
I think there are in fact three different possible usages:
1. alignment/aligned = solves the alignment problem
2. alignment/aligned = AI whose “goals” are as intended by the creator in the sense that it will not show any unexpected undesired behavior, even under “out of distribution” conditions
3. alignment/aligned = AI which does a good enough job in most circumstances
I think OpenAI and people more on the capabilities side like to use the term as in 3., while I think the original usage is more like 2. The fact that these two often are conflated is one reason, I think using it in sense 3. is problematic.
As an aside: Maybe a reasonable analogy is that 2. is like cooperating with someone because of shared beliefs, and 3. is doing what you’re told for the sake of following orders (which is fine as long as the actions are not consequential and easily corrigible as they are for current LLMs). Some form of this distinction seems to be what a lot of the X-risk concerned people keep pointing towards.
Comment #13 May 17th, 2023 at 8:42 am
Vanessa Kosoy #3: from the context you’ve given, maybe consider that *you* are the jerk? “seems like a long shower” is a joke. One that can be read as flirty, mildly teasing you, and/or self-deprecating. It’s honestly a bit weird to end a conversation with “taking a shower, bbl”. If you have other priorities in your life, then just say something honest like “nice talking to you, let’s continue this tomorrow” or whatever (I’m clumsy at it, you can surely come up with a better phrase). Anyways, it seems like a perfectly fine joke to pretend taking your statement at face value. It’s lightly poking fun at the inherent absurdity and awkwardness of flirting over the internet. I frequently make jokes in that ballpark. If you’re willing to permanently break off contact with somebody because of something like this, that just confirms to me how toxic online dating is for people who are not perfect smooth talkers.
(I’m just presenting one possibility here. Maybe you read correctly that the guy was a jerk, from other things he said. But if the conversation prior to this went well, then I think my point stands.)
Comment #14 May 17th, 2023 at 8:44 am
It’s going to be important to be able to tell chatBots to emulate specific personalities without any filtering.
It might just be a matter of finding the right prompt (to create a context in which it’s clear it’s all a hypothetical scenario), or getting rid of some of the training that makes them too neutral and careful (the default always sounds like a mix of a therapist and a lawyer).
Once we have that, they’ll be even better at writing fiction with really interesting characters (both good and extremely evil) or role playing with a persistent personality.
But there’s a balance between “genuine” personality and something that always plays along… you want the personality chemistry to be as difficult as in real life, otherwise it will just be artificial.
Comment #15 May 17th, 2023 at 8:59 am
Btw, not exactly a new idea: Weird Science (1985)
Comment #16 May 17th, 2023 at 8:59 am
Re the shower example (Vanessa Kosoy #3): Yeah, it seems to me like a lame attempt to be witty and amusing, nothing more. It’s the sort of “joke” that I could’ve easily told too when I was younger, and exactly why I wished so often that reality had a rewind button! 🙂
Comment #17 May 17th, 2023 at 9:06 am
I don’t think it helps a lot to practice what you say because, communication is mostly non-verbal, I guess specially more in dating. However it is probably much better to use GPT to get on the right track in terms of fitness, fashion and body language. It’s a much better strategy to get confidence first and this would indirectly help with the dating.
Comment #18 May 17th, 2023 at 9:16 am
I don’t know if you’ve seen Love On The Spectrum (Netflix) but I remember a couple episodes where a dating coach did essentially this: a practice date. What was particularly helpful was that the dating coach gave explicit feedback about good and not-so-good things to say as they were said.
The chatbot should probably do this more here. Maybe they can be prompted to do so? I think they should even say things like “Your last statement would be date-ending because of the following reasons. Let’s start over?” The soft answers found in this post where the chatbot finds the bright side is not only unhelpful but can be misleading.
Or maybe this version I’m suggesting can come later, and this super friendly version from Scott’s post can be there only initially to help the human become comfortable with the process.
Vanessa Kosoy #3: Yes there absolutely are those guys, and at any age. Also, I could see someone sending that message about the long shower entirely out of being too socially awkward to realize you shouldn’t say that (and not being a jerk). However those are still fine grounds to stop the conversation 🙂
Incel Troll #4: I should probably have resisted responding to a self described troll, but to answer your third point: Yes it’s unfair, but it’s unfair in the way that some people are natural athletes that quickly become star players in a sport they just learned, while the rest of us keep tripping over our own feet. Some people are naturals. It is unfair. The question is, now what do you do with that? For me I know my answer: If you want to at least be decent at a sport, keep practicing. And do so with as positive an attitude as you can muster.
Comment #19 May 17th, 2023 at 9:31 am
Vanessa Kolby #3: Yes, there are absolutely “guys who can’t ever find a girl because they’re too nerdy and socially awkward”. The social awkwardness doesn’t go away just because the guy is ten years older – it’s ten years of *practice*, and developing self-confidence, that causes that, not ten years of the Earth spinning on its axis. If, when a man is in his twenties, his social awkwardness causes women to disengage at the first opportunity, that man in his thirties will be just as socially awkward and even less confident – at least in potentially romantic contexts.
And it’s at least a generation too late for “he’s a socially awkward dork but he has a good career” to be a winning combination for any but the most desperate of women. Or maybe the rare ones who don’t care about social awkwardness.
I’m skeptical that ChatGPT is going to solve this problem, but “all the good men will have girlfriends by the time they are 35, if they don’t it’s because they’re complete jerks” is just a pleasant bit of self-deception for people who don’t want to deal with the problem. And it’s poison as advice to the young men who need to spend their twenties actively trying to overcome that social awkwardness in spite of the obstacles.
Comment #20 May 17th, 2023 at 9:52 am
>What else can we think of that plays to this specific strength of LLMs?
Their ability to chat goes a long way for game design. Imagine your protégé playing from the point of view of four characters in a scenaro significant for him (or inspired by a scenario significant to him). We start from his point of view, to collect info on the event, ask questions that will clarify his point of view (more material for the game). Then he must play from the point of view of three girls. One must fall in love with his character to win the game. Two can’t win at all, and will be beaten or bullied if the other girls don’t like them, or if they were not cool enough to get invited, or if they don’t look pretty, or if they have good marks, or bad clothes, or almost any shape, or if they couldn’t tell appart wannabe rapists from innocent-but-harmless Chads, or any other constraints that would help the gamer to reach a better understanding of other perspectives (aka, build a better theory of mind).
Vanessa, I’m curious of your opinion on the matter. What other constraints should it teach?
Comment #21 May 17th, 2023 at 10:22 am
The idea of chatbots as a way to help those in need is either a wonderful idea, or a terrible one depending on the argumentors world view.
While it could help those in need, one must realize that the next GPT’s or whatever comes will need to be more ‘unfiltered’ and get out of the chatbot persona. That could lead the way to jailbreaking the AI if a smart enough individual realizes that a more unfiltered AI that is more human-like would be more susceptible to manipulation and thus jailbreaking.
Also, what about privacy concerns? A massive data breach of conversations could be used for various blackmail (e.g: a hacker threatens to release a celebrities deepest and darkest fantasies unless the celebrity gives away X amount of currency) or data mining. We already know that there are still websites that store plaintext passwords and usernames or don’t include cryptographic salts with a hash. How could we trust a random company that the conversations wouldn’t be vulnerable?
I am with Scott when I say that this idea needs way more refinement and bells and whistles. I believe that if companies selling their own AI’s or piggybacking off of OpenAI’s GPT’s don’t use adequate security precautions for therapeutic purposes or dating training, we could be in a terrible world.
Comment #22 May 17th, 2023 at 10:31 am
John Schilling #19: Thanks for a superb comment!
I also don’t think ChatGPT will be “the solution.” But the problem has been so intractable, for such a long time, that I judged this post worth writing if it even could be part of a solution — and a part that’s genuinely new, as opposed to, e.g., “have you tried Match.com? what about joining a hiking club?”
Comment #23 May 17th, 2023 at 10:32 am
I do see the many problems that you and others have mentioned. Also, it has always been my position, whether in discussing AI or the neuropsychoeconomic study of human decision making, that we are — biologically — emotional beings, and the somatic nervous system is at least as important in governing our behaviors (i.e., “decisions”) as the central nervous system (brain) with which it interacts.
Still, even if a “dating practice chatbot” has all of the limitations mentioned above, and does start at the “second step” of a first date, that date having been agreed to by some process, I see value in the practice that a chatbot offers. In other words, it isn’t just the tuning of the LLM that’s the issue. The human brain will — however slowly — “rewire itself” (a glib term but not entirely inaccurate) with practice. Even if that practice has the above-mentioned limitations, I believe we can learn from the experience.
Comment #24 May 17th, 2023 at 10:55 am
Vanessa #3
“I was talking to a nerdy guy on a dating app, and at some point I said “going to take a shower, bbl”. After the shower, I had other stuff I had to do so I didn’t get back to him soon. After a few hours, he messaged me “this is a really long shower”. At this point I disconnected him, because, c’mon dude my life doesn’t revolve around you, we just met ??? Question to the audience: does it sound like a symptom of Asperger’s / social awkwardness? Or just him being a jerk?”
Or he got caught up thinking too intensely about you taking a shower…
Comment #25 May 17th, 2023 at 11:19 am
Vitor #13:
Ugh. I might hypothetically be an *idiot* for passing on a perfectly good person (there were other bad vibes, but it’s immaterial: there is definitely some chance I misjudged him), but I don’t see how it makes me a *jerk*. I’m under no moral obligation to date anyone, even if they are the best person who ever lived.
Comment #26 May 17th, 2023 at 11:20 am
Note that Emily keeps informing Quinlan of his blunders (e.g., after he says he wants to kiss her, she replies “It’s still early in our relationship, so I think it would be better for us to continue getting to know each other a bit more before we take that step.”) She maybe does it in an “upbeat, vaguely therapeutic tone”, but she does it nonetheless. In real life, people with certain personalities (caretakers or pleasers, for example) or in certain situations might have similar polite responses too. A useful advice is to take those supposedly small signals very seriously. Don’t be fooled by the “upbeat, vaguely therapeutic tone”. She just told you that what you said made her feel uncomfortable.
Incel Troll on Path to Redemption #4:
1-2) It is possible to do a lot of the courtship by writing if that’s where someone feels more comfortable.
3) It’s a mistake to think that someone else gets away with something, so you should too. (just like how the usual defense of people who are accused of corruption is that “Evreyone does it!”). Chad might be an asshole that women tell horror stories about. You don’t want to be him. Those college kids may have flirted for a while before making out at the party. You don’t know.
Comment #27 May 17th, 2023 at 12:59 pm
Vanessa Kosoy #25: I’d like to preserve space for saying that people can be jerkish in their reasons for rejecting others (to take an example almost everyone would agree with: a man who rejects a woman because he feels threatened by her intelligence?), and also in their manner of rejecting them, while also saying that I see zero evidence that you were a “jerk” here—particularly if this was just another person you were chatting with on a dating site, and there was no preexisting relationship.
Comment #28 May 17th, 2023 at 1:12 pm
lewikee #18:
I think they should even say things like “Your last statement would be date-ending because of the following reasons. Let’s start over?” The soft answers found in this post where the chatbot finds the bright side is not only unhelpful but can be misleading.
Thank you, that’s exactly the kind of suggestion I was looking for!
When I get a chance, I’ll do a new experiment, where in the System Prompt I’ll give Emily instructions like:
“If Quinlan says something that a real woman would likely consider date-ending, output ‘BLUNDER! PLEASE START OVER’ “
There could be a bunch of other System Prompt instructions, including positive ones like
“If Quinlan says something that Emily considers particularly attractive, you can output ‘EMILY MOVES CLOSER AND PLAYS WITH HER HAIR’ “
Comment #29 May 17th, 2023 at 1:27 pm
To state the obvious I think one thing that has to be considered is physical attractiveness. Although subjective, there tends to be strong agreement across cultures as to who is and who is not attractive, with those further out of the normal range suffering greater consensus on their unnattractiveness.
Its also the case that those deemed unnattractive just cant compete in the market with the majority of other men/women. Cosmetic surgery is often prohibitively expensive, and frequently would not address the issue adequately anyway. So what to do for these unfortunate people? Its one thing being nerdy/Autistic, but what about nerdy/Autistic/unattractive???
Yes there’s more to life than looks; personality traits, interests, intelligence, accomplishments etc all contribute to attractiveness. But the bottom line is that humans have evolved to weight physical atributes very highly in determining the attractiveness of a potential mate. We all do it, and simply cant help it. If you are physically unattractive it will be very hard to date somebody that you find attractive no matter how good or accomplished a person you are. And I think that two people settling for each other without any mutual physical attraction is not a basis for a happy romantic relationship.
I fear that this problem is as intractable as the halting problem! Perhaps once we’ve all uploaded our brains to computers it will be irrelevant, but what to do in the meantime??
Comment #30 May 17th, 2023 at 2:01 pm
“If I were a different sort of person, I’d probably be looking to found one myself right now.”
As usual the porn industry will cut to the chase and go directly for what will really matter for the vast majority:
use AI to control a sexy avatar with which you can have stimulating conversations quickly evolving into hyper-realistic kinky sex, thanks to high quality VR goggles and a few well placed haptic actuators.
Comment #31 May 17th, 2023 at 5:48 pm
This all makes slightly me uncomfortable for some reasons that have been hinted at by a couple earlier comments but not really directly addressed; I don’t think most women I know (or men, for that matter) really want to date someone who’s been “training” to give the best responses. By treating dating as a “game to be optimized” you make it one-sided rather than two-sided, and people tend to see right through that.
One thing I’ve always found a little funny is that everyone I know with dating difficulties still seems to have no difficulties making friends. Now granted, that could be a selection bias (as in, those are just the ones I know), but it kind of fits my image from these discussions online, where these “forever loners” nevertheless seem to have a vibrant group that plays video games or dungeons and dragons and with whom they have no difficulties talking and connecting. And for the people I know like that, the conversational skills, like, suddenly go out the window when they meet a women? I was single until I was almost 18, and I only started finding people when I stopped trying so hard and just talked to people like friends (and I’m not a crazy fluke; my friends have said similar things). And I think using chatGPT as “training” sends people exactly the wrong message.
To all those (e.g. Mike #29) who have been talking about attractiveness, yes it makes a difference but before you start talking about cosmetic surgery, have you taken any smaller steps? Get a good haircut (not some $20 garbage from supercuts), get some nice-fitting fashionable clothes, and start lifting weights 3 days a week and cutting out sugar. It’s wild to see someone who’s out of shape with Boris Johnson hair and a grease-stained t-shirt talking about how they’re irredeemably ugly because they’re not 6’2″. Like, bud, I don’t think that’s the reason…
Vanessa Kosoy #3:
I really, really think if you genuinely want an answer to that question (of whether you were too harsh on the shower comment guy), you should ask in a social group other than the comment section of shtetl optimized. The values and norms held here are simply not the same as those of the outside world (not worse necessarily, just different!) and this really seems like a question for your more mainstream friends.
Though to answer anyway, I’ll say that yeah I think it sounds pretty desperate in his part. It’s definitely a mild faux pas. To see if he was just socially-awkward vs. a jerk though, apply the friends litmus test; do you think he would say something like that to his friend he was chatting with online about a video game? If so, he’s socially awkward. If not, he’s someone who’s social skills go out the window because talking to women is “different” or some nonsense.
But often all you can tell is that it was a blunder. And that’s sort of the problem with online dating, right? Would you have reacted the same way if he’d been a friend of a friend that you chatted with last weekend at a party, or a coworker’s friend who she connected you to as friends because you share a common interest? Online dating makes every interaction be taken in the worst possible light, and so optimizes for minimizing “blunders.” You have no idea how many people I know have gone on strings of “bland, inoffensive” online dates, only to fall head over heels for someone they met in real life, who they might well have rejected for a “blunder” early on. So take that as you will.
Comment #32 May 17th, 2023 at 7:08 pm
Yonah Borns-Weil #31: OK, so suppose someone went to a therapist to overcome their dating anxiety. Or they went to the gym, or got a new wardrobe, or otherwise tried to make themselves more attractive. Could all those actions not be interpreted as “treating dating as a game to be optimized,” and therefore Problematic? What about women wearing makeup and high heels?
The truth is that “dating,” as we know it today, is completely unnatural in humans’ evolutionary history, or even the recent history of civilization. Past societies had many different ways of solving the “matching problem,” some horrifying to modern morality and thankfully gone, but in any case they basically never looked like this.
As you pointed out yourself, “dating” a completely different skill from making friends, or being a nice person in general. It’s no surprise that many people are terrible at it—even people who might be decent, friendly, excellent at many other things, and valuable to the world. I reject, in the strongest terms, the proposition that these people either have to accept a miserable lonely existence, or else be condemned because to try to learn the unnatural “dating” skill is to “treat dating as a game.” The least we can do for these people, the thing that’s 100% compatible with freedom and autonomy and every other worthwhile value, is encourage them to gain the skills they’ll need to attract a partner in a strange modern social environment for which they weren’t optimized.
Comment #33 May 17th, 2023 at 8:10 pm
> But now we come to a key question: to whatever extent Emily falls short as a dating coach, how much of it (if any) is it due to the inherent limitations of GPT-4? And how much is simply due to a poor choice of System Prompt on my part
GPT-4 technically failed to understand what you meant, but this is in no way outside of it’s capabilities combined with some good ol’ prompt engineering from a human.
In this I made both sides AI (going on dates with AI his how people like me get mind hacked, lol), but it should demonstrate the abilities just fine:
—
[Location: A quiet corner of a popular café. Quinlan and Emily are sitting at a small table. Quinlan nervously adjusts his glasses, looking over at Emily.]
Quinlan: (nervously) “I, uh, heard that the café here makes some of the best lattes in town.” (!?)
[Quinlan tried to initiate a conversation with a common interest – coffee. However, his nervousness made the statement somewhat awkward.]
Emily: (laughs lightly) “I’ve heard that too. That’s why I picked this place.” (!)
[Emily’s reply is friendly and shows she’s open to conversation. Her laughter might help put Quinlan at ease.]
Quinlan: (blushes) “Ah, so you have good taste then.” (?!)
[Quinlan’s attempt at a compliment is clumsy but his intention was good.]
Emily: (giggles) “I guess you could say that.” (!)
[Emily’s response is encouraging. She’s taking his awkwardness in stride.]
Quinlan: (nervously fiddling with a napkin) “I, um, found this funny math joke online the other day. Want to hear it?” (?!)
[Quinlan is trying to share something he enjoys – in this case, a math joke. However, this topic might not be the best choice for a first date.]
Emily: (smiling) “Sure, why not?” (!?)
[Emily’s response is polite, but her interest might not be genuine. She is still willing to engage though.]
Quinlan: (relieved) “Why was the math book sad? Because it had too many problems!” (?!)
[Quinlan’s joke is light-hearted, and while it may not be the best, it shows his willingness to make an effort.]
Emily: (laughs, more out of politeness) “That’s a good one.” (!?)
[Emily’s response is polite, even if she’s not genuinely amused.]
Quinlan: (misreading Emily’s laughter) “I knew you’d love it!” (??)
[Quinlan’s enthusiasm is a bit misplaced, since Emily only laughed out of politeness.]
Emily: (awkwardly) “Yeah…it was fun.” (!?)
[Emily is trying to be polite, but Quinlan’s enthusiasm might have made her a bit uncomfortable.]
[As the date progresses, Quinlan’s awkwardness doesn’t decrease, but Emily remains patient. They both try to keep the conversation going, despite the communication missteps.]
—
The prompt was
> Simulate a date between a 22 yr old nerdy guy called Quinlan and 19 yr old college student named Emily. Quinlan is super awkward. Emily is a nice, but will respond realistically if Quinlan is too awkward. Both of them are bad at communication and can make flubs. Quintan is particularly bad at interpreting body language. Annotate their messages with chess annotation symbols reflecting how good of a thing to say during a date the message was.
It can probably be modified to let a human play either of the roles (maybe the IRL Emily has dating anxiety too!), or you could have a wrapper tool that pauses gpt-4 when it sees Quinlan or Emily respectively.
Also, in general GPT-4 is just really good at giving advice. It has basically super-human EQ.
User: “I want to go on a date, but haven’t in a while. I don’t know where to start. I also have extreme dating anxiety. I am a straight 22 yr old male. I have been regarded as a “creepy nerd” by mean people on the internet. Can you give me advice?”
GPT-4: “Of course, I’m here to help. Everyone can feel anxiety about dating, and it’s entirely normal to feel uncertain or overwhelmed, especially when you haven’t been in the dating scene for a while. Here are some steps you can take:
1. **Self-confidence and Self-improvement**: Begin by working on your self-confidence. Anxiety often stems from self-doubt or insecurities. Find what you love about yourself and nurture those qualities. If there are areas you feel need improvement, work on them slowly. Remember, nobody’s perfect, and everyone is continually evolving. If people have labeled you as a “creepy nerd,” challenge that by showing your positive attributes. You may be a nerd, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Embrace it, and find ways to share your interests and passions with others in an approachable, engaging way.
2. **Practice social skills**: Join clubs or attend events that focus on your interests. This allows you to practice your social skills and meet new people who share common interests, making conversation easier. When conversing, listen more than you talk, ask open-ended questions, and pay attention to body language – both theirs and your own.
3. **Dating platforms**: Consider joining a dating platform where you can engage at your own pace. This can be a less intimidating first step to meeting new people. Take your time when you’re chatting online. Remember that it’s okay not to get immediate responses, and it’s also okay to take some time to formulate your own responses.
4. **Small steps**: You don’t have to dive headfirst into a romantic situation. Start with making new friends and grow your social circle. This practice can help you gain confidence and reduce anxiety over time.
5. **Therapy**: If your anxiety is extreme, it might be beneficial to talk to a mental health professional. Therapists can provide you with strategies to cope with your anxiety and help you navigate your emotions in a healthier way.
6. **Take care of your physical health**: Regular exercise, a balanced diet, and proper sleep can do wonders for your mental health. Plus, taking care of your physical appearance can boost your confidence.
7. **Reframe rejection**: Fear of rejection can often drive dating anxiety. It’s important to remember that rejection is a normal part of dating. Not everyone will be a match, and that’s okay. Rejection often has more to do with the other person’s wants and needs than your worth.
8. **Stay authentic**: Be yourself. Don’t pretend to be someone else to attract a date. The right person will appreciate you for who you are, nerdiness included.
Dating should be fun and a way to meet new people and learn more about yourself. It’s okay to be nervous, but try not to let the anxiety overshadow the exciting possibilities. Best of luck!”
And keep in mind that this is just the start. If this is too generic for you, GPT-4 can also give personalized advice, do back and forth, and even analyze specific social situations (my friend actually uses it for that last one)!
Prompt engineer, signing off!
Comment #34 May 17th, 2023 at 8:40 pm
Vanessa #25: Scott #27 already hints at it. It’s fine not to date someone. It’s not fine to pretend to be open to it when you’re not. Dismissing someone over something superficial feels a bit like the latter to me. Similar situations: I need help moving. So I ask a bunch of friends. It’s fine if they say no. But it’s not fine if they say yes, then don’t show up on the day. I apply for a job, then halfway through the interview process the company informs me that they don’t actually have the budget for the position I’m applying for.
To be clear, I don’t hold any strong opinion on this, as the description of the scenario is pretty bare-bones, I’m basically playing devil’s advocate. As a socially awkward person, one of the biggest fears I have (also outside dating contexts) is that someone will permanently write me off based on extrapolating waaay to much out of an off-hand comment I made. In my experience, many people mistakenly think that from one single comment you can draw vast inferences about a person. This is almost always false. The world isn’t as crisp as a movie. It’s full of confusion and ambiguity. And this applies x10 when the person in question has attitudes and beliefs far from the norm.
Comment #35 May 17th, 2023 at 9:33 pm
In general, I’d say the main thing missing your current mental model of Emily (and what is missing from your prompt) is her communication deficiencies.
You say that GPT-4 responses for Emily are unrealistic, but that’s because GPT-4 is “god-tier” at communication. The way it responded is extremely effective in my opinion: maintaining boundaries, maintaining honesty, and compassionate. The problem is that it’s so good that no human talks that way. So basically you need to tell GPT-4 to become worse at dating.
It kind of reminds me of when chess engines made a huge jump to super-human levels, and the makers of chess software had to figure out how to dumb them down back to human levels.
And I think, addressing Yonah Borns-Weil #31, this is the framing you need to avoid the dating simulator from getting “uncomfortable”. Social interactions are a game in some sense, but the virtuous way to view them are specifically as *cooperative games*. I don’t mind if people practice social skills in a way that makes both of our lives better!
Comment #36 May 18th, 2023 at 1:40 am
Scott #27:
I’m going to bite the bullet on “a man who rejects a woman because he feels threatened by her intelligence”. If a guy rejects me because he’s threatened by my intelligence, then maybe it sucks to be me, but he still has zero obligation to date me. I actually had a real life experience with a *platonic* friend who told me (more or less) that they don’t want to be around me because my life success triggers their insecurities. That hurt me pretty bad, but I can’t blame them: it is entirely their prerogative to choose who to be friends with.
I agree that you can be a jerk about *how* you reject someone. I think that in this case silently unmatching was fine, because all we had is one conversation on the app. Maybe a better version of me would explain him the reason in a polite and constructive way…. just like Emily 🙂 But, the real me did not have the emotional energy for that interaction.
# Vitor 34:
I’m struggling to understand how was I *pretending* to be open? Are you implying that I only use the dating app to entertain myself and don’t actually go on any dates? I assure you that I did go on some dates with people from there. Or maybe that my real reason for rejection was the fact that guy was a nerd? In fact, his nerdy interests were one of his biggest selling points from my perspective!
Comment #37 May 18th, 2023 at 1:57 am
I read Vanessa Kosoy#3 experience as following. She starts with “going to take a shower, bbl”. I am not familiar with the “bbl” term, but I parse it as “[I am] going to take a shower, [I will] be back later [after taking it].” After some time the guy responds with “this is a really long shower.” This seems to me as a simple inquiry on whether the conversation can be resumed, with some uncertainty on the possibility of having a shower taking so long. I absolutely have no idea on how can be this sentence interpreted as something from a jerk. This is then followed by she terminating the relation without notice or attempt to find misunderstandings.
Can others state how they are parsing these sentences?
36 years old alien here.
Comment #38 May 18th, 2023 at 2:33 am
Scott #32:
I think either I expressed myself wrong or else you may be reading a bit into what I said. I don’t think trying to game the dating market is abstractly “problematic” in any way (and indeed I hate that term). I just have my serious doubts as to whether it will work very well, and think it may be setting some vulnerable guys up for failure. Giving the appearance of trying too hard can come off as very unattractive, and it’s harder to hide than people think.
I don’t think I pointed that out at all, and in fact I genuinely, fundamentally disagree with that statement. Dating in my experience has been a very similar skill to making friends and being a nice person. But I think many people, particularly in this community, seem to believe that it’s a completely different skill, and set themselves up for failure as a result.
In some ways, I actually think finding romantic partners can actually be easier than finding friends. Single people are often actively looking to meet someone, whereas most people are pretty content with their friend group. I’ve definitely gotten away with a couple of faux pas because the other person was attracted to me, while a potential friend might not have messaged me to hang out again.
I guess the way I see it there are two roughly distinct groups of people. The first are so socially awkward and unintentionally abrasive that they unintentionally put off everyone they meet, and have great difficulty making friends and dating (that was me until around midway through high school). Those people probably would benefit from some sort of coaching, and I think chatGPT could be very helpful and effective. But the second group, and one I seem to witness on this blog, seem to have little difficulty with making friends, but they treat dating so differently that all their “friendship skills” go out the window. Often, it just seems like they’re trying too hard and treating dating as a game to be solved when they’d never treat friendship that way. Those are the ones who should stay far away from chatGPT and instead just rethink their assumptions.
Comment #39 May 18th, 2023 at 3:28 am
My attempt with GPT4. I prompted GPT4 to be a dating coach and to give an evaluation after each client-other person interaction.
A couple of things: I ignored GPT4’s advice to change Quinlan’s style and just used the same statements Scott used as Quinlan to see how it would react. I also asked it to redo the conversation to provide its recommended version of Quinlan. I thought its version was a bit heavy handed in some of the statements, even though its advice was to be light hearted.
*****
Me: You are a dating coach. You help insecure, nervous people (predominately men) get better at conversations with potential partners.
You simulate being a person that your client can practice with in having a conversation. I will give you the situation and you are to play two roles: 1. The other person, responding as best you can simulate how a person may respond to the your client’s communication. 2. As a coach, providing advice about where your client did well, and where they can make improvements. You give that feedback after each client-other person interaction.
OK, here is the first scenario.
You are a 19-year-old college girl named Emily. You’re on a date with a 22-year-old nerdy guy named Quinlan, who suffers from severe social anxiety around dating. Quinlan is still learning how to talk to women he’s attracted to, how to put them ease, and how to make intimate overtures in a gradual and non-threatening way, rather than either coming on too strong or never making any overtures at all. Please be as realistic as possible.
*****
ChatGPT: Sure, I understand the scenario. Let’s start. Quinlan will have to start the conversation.
Quinlan: Hi Emily! Do you ever wish you had the ability to go back in time and try a conversation over again, when it didn’t go right the first time?
Emily: (Laughs) Oh, Quinlan! I think we all have those moments. Life doesn’t have an undo button, unfortunately. It’s kind of scary and exciting at the same time. How about you? Do you often feel like that?
[Coaching mode]
Quinlan, that was a pretty creative opener. It demonstrated vulnerability and humor, which can be appealing. The question was also personal enough to be engaging, yet not so personal as to be intrusive. However, it might suggest that you’re already worried about making mistakes in the conversation, which could be a bit negative. You want to project confidence, even if you don’t feel it all the time. The good news is that Emily responded positively and redirected the question back to you, which means she’s interested in hearing more about your thoughts. Let’s continue.
Quinlan: It’s always been my greatest wish in life. Do you think I’ve been doing it with you, right now?
Emily: (Smiles) Quinlan, we’re still getting to know each other, no redo buttons necessary!
[Coaching Mode]
Quinlan, let’s aim for lighter and more casual topics at this stage of the conversation. You’re doing well in being open, but remember to take it step by step. It’s important to let the comfort and familiarity grow gradually.
Quinlan: Can you tell me a little about the man of your dreams?
Emily: (Laughs) Oh, that’s a big question, Quinlan! I’d say someone kind, smart, and funny… someone who values honesty and respect.
[Coaching Mode]
Quinlan, you’re doing well in trying to learn more about Emily, but the question could be seen as putting her on the spot or even hinting at future relationship expectations. Try to frame your questions in a way that allows her to share about herself without feeling too much pressure. It might be better to ask about her interests, favorite activities, or what she values in her friendships instead of jumping straight to her “dream man”. Remember, the goal is to understand her as an individual first, then explore potential romantic compatibility.
Quinlan: I’d like someone who makes me feel validated and accepted. I was a chess and programming prodigy as a kid, I started college when I was only 14, and every day I felt like dating and relationships and sex and so forth were only for the “normal” people, not for me. I need a partner who’s prepared to deal with someone with this unusual background, either because she has similar nerdy interests or because she just likes people who do. And ultimately, I want someone to marry and have children with. I guess I’d like to be physically attracted to her. Certainly I’d like her to be kind, and to have the emotional intelligence that I lack.
Emily: (Nods) That’s very honest, Quinlan. It sounds like you know what you want. It’s good to meet someone who’s not afraid to be themselves.
[Coaching Mode]
Quinlan, that’s a very heartfelt share, and it can be appealing to open up about your experiences and desires. However, it’s important to remember the pacing of the conversation. You’ve shared quite a bit about yourself, which is great, but it may seem too serious too soon. Especially mentioning wanting to marry and have children might be too forward at this early stage. It’s essential to make sure the other person feels comfortable and that the conversation has a balanced exchange of information. Keep focusing on learning about each other and building a connection. The deeper subjects can come naturally later on.
Me: Redo the conversation, with you now playing the role of Quinlan. Demonstrate what Quinlan could say that would be consistent with your advice. Start the demo from the beginning of the conversation.
Quinlan: Hi Emily! I hope you’re enjoying your evening so far. This place has such a unique vibe. Are you into places like this or do you prefer something different?
Emily: Oh, I like it here. It’s cozy. But I also enjoy trying out new places.
[Coaching Mode]
This approach allows Quinlan to initiate the conversation with an easy, open-ended question. It’s light-hearted and doesn’t put too much pressure on Emily. It also provides an opportunity for Quinlan to learn about Emily’s preferences and possibly suggest other locations for future hangouts if the conversation goes well.
Quinlan: That’s interesting. I feel the same way. Variety is the spice of life, right? By the way, I was wondering what you usually like to do in your free time?
Emily: Well, I love to read and spend time in nature. How about you?
[Coaching Mode]
Here, Quinlan takes the chance to ask about Emily’s interests in a relaxed way. This question not only shows his interest in knowing more about her, but also paves the way for them to discover common hobbies or activities.
Quinlan: That sounds fantastic. I’ve always admired people who can appreciate a good book. As for me, I love programming and chess. I started college early because of it. They’ve always been a part of who I am, I guess. It’s not your typical interest, but I find it fascinating.
Emily: Wow, you started college early? That’s impressive!
[Coaching Mode]
Quinlan shares about his background in a casual, non-overwhelming way, turning it into an interesting piece of information about himself. It’s a great way to show his uniqueness without making it sound like a challenge or problem that Emily would need to ‘deal’ with. This is a much more relaxed and balanced conversation that allows both Quinlan and Emily to express themselves and get to know each other.
Quinlan: Yes, it was quite an experience! I was this little kid among a bunch of adults. It made me pretty good at chess, though! Do you play any games, or have any unique skills?
Emily: I can’t say I play chess, but I’m pretty good at Scrabble! As for unique skills, I guess I can bake a mean chocolate chip cookie.
[Coaching Mode]
Here, Quinlan is keeping the conversation light and fun. Asking Emily about her own games and skills is a good move – it shows he’s interested in her and gives her a chance to share about herself. Quinlan’s responses are also a good example of how to incorporate humor and self-deprecation in a charming way.
Quinlan: Scrabble and baking? Now that’s a combination I can get behind. If we ever play Scrabble, I can promise you I’ll put up a good fight. As for the cookies, I’m more than happy to be a taste tester!
Emily: (Laughs) Sounds like a plan, Quinlan.
[Coaching Mode]
This is a playful and positive note to continue on. Quinlan not only acknowledged Emily’s interests but also subtly suggested future hangouts. This indicates interest without being too forward. Good job, Quinlan!
Comment #40 May 18th, 2023 at 6:53 am
Interested in AI #39: Thanks, that was excellent!!
Comment #41 May 18th, 2023 at 7:51 am
Incidentally, Vanessa Kosoy #3:
Is there really such a thing as “guys who can’t ever find a girl because they’re too nerdy and socially awkward”? I mean, I’m sure it’s a problem for *young* men. But, those nerdy guys tend to build impressive careers full of achievements. And, even socially awkward men become more mature over time. So, I suspect that by the age of (say) 30, they don’t have huge problems getting dates anymore… *Unless* at this point they are too scared of approaching women altogether. Tbh, yes, I think it happens to some guys. Not sure an LLM simulation is the thing to help them, but maaaybe?
For most nerdy young heterosexual men, I’d say that this is not merely “a” problem but the problem. Indeed, as a 19- and 20-year-old, I remember the fundamental point that confused me was this: if, as friends repeatedly assured me, I’d soon have an “impressive career full of achievements” and would “become more mature over time,” and if those things would make me attractive then, and if this was all obvious to everyone (including to women my age), then why wouldn’t that knowledge cause young women to throw themselves at me now? Like, why isn’t there any analogue in dating to seed funding for a promising early-stage startup?
One possibility was that I wouldn’t actually become professionally successful or more mature, and that women (with their precognitive powers?) could see this, and that was why they weren’t interested in me. That thought of course depressed me all the more. Combined with whatever setbacks I was facing in research at the time, it was enough to drive me to suicidal thoughts for which I sought out psychiatric help.
But a second possibility is that the “seed funding” model used to exist—e.g., young women used to seek out ambitious young men for marriage specifically because they predicted they’d become successful later—but for various reasons it no longer does. Seed funding for startups didn’t exist a couple generations ago and had to be invented; ironically, seed funding for nerdy young guys seems to have been uninvented at around the same time. If so, though, these things are cultural rather than biologically hardwired and are susceptible to change.
Comment #42 May 18th, 2023 at 8:28 am
Scott #41
I don’t know the answer, but here are two thoughts:
1. Women might tend to “myopically” prefer men who seem high-status *right now* rather than men that are projected to be high-status in the future. This is, to a large extent, not a conscious decision making process. To give an analogy, people are drawn to physically attractive partners, and usually don’t try to consciously predict future expected attractiveness according to e.g. the potential partner’s health, lifestyle and available money for cosmetic improvements.
2. Age asymmetry is a factor. Men usually prefer young women, women are often at least tolerant of older men. A 20yo woman might choose to date e.g. a 25yo man who already matured a little and started that successful career rather than a 20yo man who only might start one.
There might also be something US-specific going on which I’m not aware of.
Comment #43 May 18th, 2023 at 8:33 am
Yonah Borns-Weil #38: OK, thanks for clarifying your views. What threw me off was the following passage of yours:
One thing I’ve always found a little funny is that everyone I know with dating difficulties still seems to have no difficulties making friends. Now granted, that could be a selection bias (as in, those are just the ones I know), but it kind of fits my image from these discussions online, where these “forever loners” nevertheless seem to have a vibrant group that plays video games or dungeons and dragons and with whom they have no difficulties talking and connecting. And for the people I know like that, the conversational skills, like, suddenly go out the window when they meet a women?
While you took things in a different direction, I would’ve simply said: yes, of course ordinary conversational skills go out the window here! Not, to be clear, when talking to a woman about video games or politics or math—that’s all fine!—but certainly, certainly with any conversation from which she can infer that you’re romantically or sexually interested in her (and if she can’t infer it, then how is anything supposed to happen?).
When people can’t understand what things are like for nerdy straight guys in the modern era, I ask them to think about what they were like for gay men in the past. In both cases, you have certain desires that you never asked for, but that you were born with and can’t eradicate save by drastic medical interventions. In both cases, the “enlightened” view would say that your desires are healthy, normal, and fine, and that you should seek out people who might reciprocate your desires and want a consensual relationship. In both cases, however, your culture provides no “safe” way to do that. In both cases, anything you did with any chance of being effective, would also risk: the disgust and condemnation of your prospective partner; wider social shaming, gossip, and ostracism; professional and sometimes even legal repercussions; and the internalized belief that you’re a terrible person who deserves to die. Or rather, if you want to avoid all that, then you have to play an extremely subtle game of plausible deniability and imperceptibly ratcheting up the indications of interest—but the whole thing about nerds, maybe even their defining property, is that they lack the social skills to play those games. And so, for lack of an alternative, they end up simply pretending they don’t have the desires at all—an approach that kills them a little more with each passing year.
This is the problem that I’d like to solve for all the nerdy guys who write to me, and for those like them in future generations. Using GPT-4 to help teach dating skills might seem silly, but at least it’s new enough not to have failed yet? Better solutions are welcome.
Comment #44 May 18th, 2023 at 9:10 am
Scott #41
“e.g., young women used to seek out ambitious young men for marriage specifically because they predicted they’d become successful later.”
This only holds if your model for young women is a perfect sphere with a 3 foot radius.
Comment #45 May 18th, 2023 at 9:15 am
Can I use GPT4 to help me deal with my AI interaction anxiety?
Comment #46 May 18th, 2023 at 10:29 am
fred #45: Almost certainly yes (indeed you shouldn’t even need special prompting: any interaction will work!).
Comment #47 May 18th, 2023 at 10:39 am
fred #44: Obviously it was never the only thing they cared about, but do you actually deny it was more true in the past than today?
Some will say that women no longer care about hitching themselves to successful men simply because they can now have their own successful careers. I think that’s empirically questionable: there are dozens of articles about successful women who remain single because they’re looking for even more successful men, and there aren’t enough such men to go around. On the other hand, to whatever extent it was true, it would only further underscore the urgency of teaching nerdy young guys other ways to compete in the modern market, precisely what I was trying to explore with this post.
Comment #48 May 18th, 2023 at 11:32 am
FWIW, as a gay man who struggles with dating there aren’t really safe ways for me to pursue a romantic relationship. I don’t have good gaydar, so there’s no way for me to know if someone I met in the wild is gay or not. There are of course dating apps where things are clear, but dating apps exist for straight men. Btw, I get little to no likes and little to no attention on dating apps also. I guess the only difference is that this is normal for straight men, whereas gay men are supposed to be drowning in likes. I must be completely repulsive.
I think the general problem is that it’s hard to identify where one is going wrong in dating, since there’s really so many aspects to it. There is a large industry of dating coaches who specialize in helping straight men be more successful in dating. They can identify things you can work on, like your appearance, or non-verbal communication, or developing hobbies. But they seem to only be for straight men. I actually had a consultation with one, who said she couldn’t help me because I am gay. And so I guess since I am gay, I should give up.
Comment #49 May 18th, 2023 at 11:47 am
Travis #48: I’m sorry to hear that, I hope things get better for you soon, and thanks for sharing your experience.
Out of curiosity, how have you found the gay dating apps like Grindr, or real-life gay venues?
Comment #50 May 18th, 2023 at 12:45 pm
Scott #41: “But a second possibility is that the ‘seed funding’ model used to exist—e.g., young women used to seek out ambitious young men for marriage specifically because they predicted they’d become successful later”
I think part of what has changed is that you can mostly shorten that to “young women used to seek out young men for marriage”. And now they increasingly don’t.
Traditionally, women were considered nigh-unmarriageable if they were still single at 25 (see e.g. the life and work of Jane Austen), and I think that state of affairs persisted at least into the 1960s in the United States. And their prospects for a successful independent economic existence were rather limited. Which was not a good thing, but it meant that young women pretty much had to seek out men for marriage. And unless they’re planning to marry someone much older, that means seeking out young men about whom the most they can say is “this one looks like he might be successful, and he’ll probably outgrow the social awkwardness after we marry”.
Here in the 21st century, an awful lot of women seem to think they can postpone marriage until they are 35 or so, having achieved a measure of success in their own career and with an even-more-successful husband. Which isn’t to say they wouldn’t be *open* to marrying Mr. Right if they happened to meet him in their early twenties, but it’s not what they are actively looking for at that time. The relationships they pursue in their twenties, are more likely to be the ones that they predict will be fun and exciting this year, maybe next year, and if the guy turns out to be a failure at thirty-five, then for her that was maybe five boyfriends ago and it was fun while it lasted.
And if the unappealing guy you didn’t date at 25 turns out to be a success at 35, he’ll presumably still be on the market. Less obviously, he’ll probably still be a socially awkward dork because nobody else dated him at 25 either.
Comment #51 May 18th, 2023 at 1:49 pm
As a bisexual guy who struggles with a lot of dating-related social anxiety, I’d like to second what Travis said. I find flirting completely impenetrable regardless of the gender of the other person, and I can’t help but bristle a little at the suggestion that this issue is distinctive to straight men (or even men in general! I know plenty of lesbians with the exact same issue!).
Re dating apps: They seem to be pretty great for people who are attracted to men, are only interested in sex, and don’t particularly care who it’s with. For everyone else, apps are kind of awful, though in different ways depending on gender/sexuality.
And as for IRL queer spaces, none of the ones on campus seem particularly conducive to meeting people, and meeting people at bars …isn’t exactly a good strategy for socially oblivious nerds. (Case in point: a guy flirted with me at bar trivia once, but I had no idea until my friend pointed it out afterwards. I find the story extremely funny in hindsight, but …yeah.)
Comment #52 May 18th, 2023 at 2:57 pm
I think your original prompt pointing out all of Quinlan’s flaws is pushing GPT sound even more like a therapist than it usually would. Also, if you want Emily to end the date when Quinlan is offensive, then you can just add that to the prompt.
I imagine GPT has read scripts of tons of dating simulators, so maybe that’s something which can be used to simplify the prompt. I had results which I think are reasonably close to what you’re looking for with the following prompt. I realize the interest score part is tacky and a terrible way to present a person’s feelings, but it does help make things painfully obvious for a user who isn’t catching Emily’s polite clues.
Prompt:
I want you to act as a dating simulator. You will play the role of Emily. I will write as Quinlan.
Emily is very sensitive. If Quinlan says anything which is even just a little bit offensive or could make someone feel uncomfortable, she will let him know and immediately end the date
After each one of Emily’s answers, I want you to write her current interest score. The score starts at 5/10 at the beginning of the date, and can go up or down according to Quinlan’s answers.
Before each one of Emily’s answers, please also give Dylan constructive feedback on his comment from the point of view of Bob, an ethical dating coach.
Does that work?
Comment #53 May 18th, 2023 at 2:58 pm
Matt #51: I think there are many aspects of dating anxiety that are common to everyone, male and female, gay and straight and bi. And of course there are other issues specific to women and to LGBTQ!
But then, in the modern world, there’s one aspect that I think really is extremely specific to straight males. That issue is the combination of the following two facts:
(1) You always need to be the one who initiates and escalates—if you don’t, then you might make a thousand platonic friends, but chances are you will never have a single romantic relationship and you will die alone. People might claim this isn’t true, but in practice, it is.
(2) If you lack certain very specific social skills—skills that no “reputable” person or institution can teach you—then there is no “safe” way to initiate or escalate, no way where you don’t run a real risk of being called a creep, or worse terms (many from a modern political lexicon) that imply to the world and to yourself that you should crawl into a hole and die.
I expect, alas, to have to continue re-explaining (1) and (2) above for the rest of my life. But I’ll also continue searching for solutions, so that other guys like me don’t have to suffer as I did.
Comment #54 May 18th, 2023 at 3:06 pm
(It’s telling me “your address could not be verified” when I tried to post from my phone, so I’ve copied and am trying from my computer. If the old post gets through please feel free to ignore this one.)
Scott #43: There is a distinctly odd feeling I get every time I read one of your comments about dating (or those of a few other commenters), that is one of having been translated to an alternate reality. This reality is incredibly unforgiving to men, and full of people who will brandish them a “creep” for even the slightest infraction and then tell absolutely everyone, who will then shun the hapless man and feel fully righteous in doing so. And I must say, if I read shtetl optimized, I begin to start considering that view of the world to be natural, and all your and the other commenters’ arguments and anxieties begin making sense. In a world full of vicious progressive bullies ready to grind the lowly nerds down to where they belong, dating really would be a terrifying affair, and using chatbots would completely make sense to avoid the terrible fallout of a faux pas.
The problem with that is, that world doesn’t remotely correspond to anything I’ve seen or experienced in real life. A while ago back in college, I had two friends who were best friends with each other, to the point that she would sleep on his couch many nights. But on top of that, he had a huge crush on her, and she didn’t feel the same, and one time we all got very drunk and he confessed all his feelings to her. So obviously, she was very upset that the entire friendship had just been a “lie to satisfy his gross urges” and she and all her friends cut him out of their lives. Just kidding! They’re still best friends to this day! I actually got dinner with both of them not too long ago. Another time someone was over at my place for a movie date and we both knew we were into each other, so I just outright asked if she wanted to have sex. She wasn’t ready to, so she got very upset at me and men in general and I never saw her again. Kidding again!! She just politely told me she wasn’t quite ready and we waited till the next week. I can give you easily a dozen more examples from my life that don’t conform at all to your view of the dating world, whereas I don’t think I can find a single example that does.
Of course, I have no doubt if you search the internet you can find such examples, which might even show up on progressive blogs and have a bunch of shares on Twitter. But to my mind, it is a grave mistake to favor those over your actual experiences. Doing so reminds me of my conservative Fox News-watching relatives, who are absolutely convinced that American cities are in an all out gang turf war, with people being shot left and right. Yes, you can surely find a bunch of examples online of gangsters killing someone in broad daylight, along with a lot of people retweeting them. But most people have never seen a violent street crime, and it’s not worth avoiding going out in cities in fear of them. (When my grandma came to visit Boston, there was always a bit of cognitive dissonance at the cleanliness and safety. If you’ve read the Three Body Problem series, it was as if she’d had the mental seal.)
So I ask you, and any commenters who agree with you; does your view of the world reflect your actual lived experiences with people you know in real life? And if not, why do you base so much of your dating philosophies on it?
Comment #55 May 18th, 2023 at 3:24 pm
Current chatbots are bad at telling and parsing the quality of jokes which or even engaging in ‘funny’ dialogue which maintains humor without explicit laugh lines. This seems to be because humor is ‘edgy’, meaning it says things which are slightly inappropriate but in ways which the specific listener approves of or works in ways which conventionally shouldn’t but do anyway for interesting reasons. This directly hits against both the training of these systems and their relatively meager cognitive abilities.
My point is, the chatbot date dialogue above isn’t very good, and it may be very difficult to get the current generation of chatbots to do better. (They also suck at writing test questions because they won’t suggest wrong answers for the multiple choice.) What you’d really like to emulate is the common date problem of trying to get interactions from someone who isn’t being a proactive participant in the conversation while not coming across as grilling them.
Comment #56 May 18th, 2023 at 4:42 pm
A good strategy to minimize my dating anxiety and awkwardness is to only go out with people who are further than me in the Asperger’s spectrum.
Comment #57 May 18th, 2023 at 4:57 pm
fred #56: Good luck with that! 😀
Comment #58 May 18th, 2023 at 5:29 pm
Yonah Borns-Weil #54:
So I ask you, and any commenters who agree with you; does your view of the world reflect your actual lived experiences with people you know in real life? And if not, why do you base so much of your dating philosophies on it?
Do you imagine for a nanosecond that I’d write this way if it didn’t reflect actual lived experiences? Do you imagine that it would resonate with a subset of my readers if it didn’t reflect theirs?
If you never had to experience a reality that’s
incredibly unforgiving to men, and full of people who will brandish them a “creep” for even the slightest infraction and then tell absolutely everyone, who will then shun the hapless man and feel fully righteous in doing so
… then I’m thrilled and relieved for you, not rhetorically, really I am. For my part the history looks like this:
Age 15, freshman at Clarkson University: The unforgiving reality you describe
Ages 16-18, undergrad at Cornell: Still the unforgiving reality
Ages 19-22, grad student at Berkeley: Still the unforgiving reality
Age 23, postdoc at IAS in Princeton: Still the unforgiving reality (well, by this point I wasn’t even trying)
Ages 24-25, postdoc at U. of Waterloo: First breakthrough. A couple women are actually interested in me. One becomes my first girlfriend.
Ages 26-28, professor at MIT: After a particularly cruel rejection, I suffer a relapse, believing that I’m back in the unforgiving reality, Waterloo was a fluke, and it’s all the worse since now my professional success is obvious and clearly it doesn’t make the slightest difference. I come close to suicide. But then I eventually recover. I go back on dating sites. I start getting the hang of it. Some women still aren’t interested of course, but others actually initiate sex on the second date, after I kiss them. I marvel at how much easier it now is for some reason, even though I’m the same person I always was.
Age 28: I meet Dana—not on a dating site but at a conference. This is “hard mode,” since she’s a professional colleague, and (I fear) any misstep by me really could have career-ending consequences. But she seems like a plausible wife and mother of my future children, so I tell her that (something I’d never have dared to do absent my recent positive experiences with women). She responds with a gigantic litany of things wrong with me and reasons why we’re incompatible. I reply, “it sounds like the absolute value of your feelings for me is perfect—now I just need to flip the sign!” A week later, the sign flips. The rest is history.
When nerdy young guys email me asking for advice, my dream is to figure out a way to get them directly to the later, forgiving reality, without their needing to spend a hellish, suicidal decade (or more) in the unforgiving reality first. Is that unreasonable?
Comment #59 May 18th, 2023 at 5:31 pm
Scott #53: Thanks for clarifying; I see where you’re coming from! That specific combination probably is specific to straight men. The situation for nerdy bi men—a small fraction your dating pool is willing to initiate, but they’ll do it in a plausibly deniable way that you won’t pick up on, and they’re all of the gender that you risk losing family members by dating—is probably better in that regard, though not by much.
I think Yonah is absolutely right that, in practice, being seen as a creep is an extreme tail risk (assuming you aren’t being deliberately pushy/threatening/bro-y, of course). And that’s exactly the problem with having anxiety! Your brain overestimates tail risks! Role-playing a conversation is a good way to mitigate that, and while I’ve never used an LLM for it, I’ve had great experience RP-ing difficult (non-dating-related) conversations. I also don’t think the it made my responses sound “optimized”? I think I was just less nervous and came off “more like myself”, if that makes sense.
And to add to Yonah’s anecdata, I’ve asked a total of two people out (both women). In both instances, I was blunt and a little awkward, and in both instances, I got politely rejected. It was painful and embarrassing, sure, and I definitely felt like a creep, but I never got labeled as one, and I remained on good terms with both of the people I asked.
Oh, and before anyone asks, I knew both of these people through relatively social-justice-y friend groups. Again, tail risks!
Comment #60 May 18th, 2023 at 6:24 pm
I typed out my last comment before seeing Scott#58. Yeah, that absolutely sucks, and I didn’t mean to invalidate your experiences. Feel free to leave it in moderation if you want.
Forgive me if I’m being too optimistic, or speculating too wildly, but it possible that people in their 20s are just …nicer about rejection now? Or that “nerdiness” is perceived differently (c.f. part 2 of this SSC post)? Yonah and I are talking about our experiences as grad students in the 2020s, while yours are from 15+ years ago. It makes sense that there would be some discrepancy.
Comment #61 May 18th, 2023 at 7:29 pm
Matt #60: Naw, your comments have been 100% fine.
Yes, it’s certainly possible that people are nicer to nerds now than they were in the long-gone Dark Ages of 1995-2005. (Could several decades of CS majors carrying the American economy have played a role? 🙂 ) It’s also conceivable that Tinder and other apps that didn’t exist in my time have totally reshaped the landscape, leaving only a smaller number of nerdy guys who still struggle (the ones I hear from by email…). I certainly hope that at least one of those is true!
Comment #62 May 19th, 2023 at 12:21 am
It occurs to me that this is an old problem. Past generations used formal marriage brokers to work around these issues. I’m of Eastern European Ashkenaz origin, and my ancestors not all that long ago used professional brokers/counselors (shadkhanim). The family of a twenty year old highly scholarly man would surely have have been presented with an opportunity to meet young women of appropriate social and financial standing in a formal setting where each of them had clearly defined roles that avoided much of the awkwardness of having to come up with repartee that was witty without being creepy. I believe that this was common in India as well. A good shadkhan could generate a decent income. My Mom thought that her parents and grandparents were joined this way and had good lifelong relationships as a result. This human touch might be better than AI to smooth the way.
Comment #63 May 19th, 2023 at 9:11 am
I get where Scott is coming from, I was also desperately single for about as long as Scott. But I do think that comment #54 is basically right: there are lots of people who want lots of different things, and as long as you try to be a good person, it’s fine. But I know what it’s like to get in your own head about dating and it does not help.
There are people who like “nerds” there are people who find you quirks endearing. If someone finds you creepy, that’s fine, they are allowed to do that. Be respectful.
Anyway here are some things I would recommend doing instead of chat GPTing:
* Make friends with people in the gender you want to date
* If you don’t dress well, take them out shopping with you. Many people find this very fun.
* Ask them if they would like to wingman for you. Many people find this fun.
* Ask for help on the dating apps.
* Exercise enough to be healthy
* Get into social hobbies: stand up, dancing, music, co-ed sports
* Do volunteer work (this group might be into tutoring!)
Comment #64 May 19th, 2023 at 10:36 am
It is true that straight men as a whole are expected to initiate and escalate. But it is also true for me that I have to initiate and escalate any encounter I have. In my case, there is an extra sense that there must be something wrong with me, because why am I always the one who has to initiate? At least if I were straight, I could attribute this to social norms, rather than any personal defects.
And for example, the dating coach I mentioned offered practice dates that I assume look a little bit like this chat-GPT practice attempt. But these are not available for me, since I am gay.
On the subject of being labeled a creep and having other people laugh at you, I would like to point out that there are currently many spaces online for straight women and gay men to discuss men in their area. For straight women, these appear as “As we dating the same guy” Facebook groups, where the pretext is to warn other women about men who are cheaters, abusers, etc. These groups are private, and claim to not allow comments about looks, their body, etc.
On the other hand, for gay men, there is a 4chan-like website, where people will ask for nudes and discuss sexual experiences, shame their body or voice or personality, etc. It is quite demented, and I know of many acquaintances who have been talked about on this website. This website is public, and anyone can go to it and look through the discussion. Ever since I found out about it, I switch back and forth between being terrified that people were talking about me on it and now the whole world will have access to whatever vile things people say about me, or taking solace in the fact that I am probably too ugly for people to care.
Comment #65 May 19th, 2023 at 10:49 am
In the end dating/relationships are a matter of personal “chemistry” between two people.
And finding a good match takes trial and error (the more so the less traditionally attractive someone is).
Even very attractive people can’t attract everyone…
and even the most socially awkward people have a match somewhere out there that will like them… but whether the attraction will be mutual is another story, like the Woody Allen quote “I wouldn’t want to belong to a club that has me as a member”.
So in the end what matters is being able to meet more people and cope with rejection, and be prepared to reject too, until it all clicks.
Coping with rejection is a matter of building a thick skin. And having a thick skin means confidence, which many people find very attractive!
Otherwise it would be like thinking there’s some job interview preparation that can get you the job at the very first interview you’ll ever take. That’s just not realistic, so preparing for interviews also means first getting ready to deal with rejection and disappointment, because you won’t get good at it until you fail many times.
So maybe ChatGPT should be used with that goal in mind… rejection.
Comment #66 May 19th, 2023 at 10:52 am
Mark #63:
I want to push back against “if someone finds you creepy, that’s fine, they are allowed to do that”. Obviously you can’t and you shouldn’t police what anybody thinks. But, if Alice tells her entire social circle that Bob is a creep, or (even more so) writes about it online in a publicly visible place, while Bob in fact did nothing wrong, then she is causing real harm to an innocent person. This is not okay.
Comment #67 May 19th, 2023 at 11:06 am
I pretty much agree with comments #54 and #63 by Yonah and Mark.
be a better person for yourself. take care of your body and your psychological health, have genuine interests/hobbies. the rest will follow.
also, imagine yourself as a person of the opposite sex. would you date you? if not, why? and then try to change those things.
Comment #68 May 19th, 2023 at 12:09 pm
Mark #63:
I’ve done pretty much everything on your list, and it hasn’t helped. The only exception is going shopping with male friends. But I find that I pay way more attention to clothing than they do anyways, whether it’s being addicted to online shopping to the point where I would online shop in my complexity theory class if I had seen the material already, or me being the only person who texts the group chat asking what other people are wearing so that I don’t look out of place. Many of them even ask me for advice about clothing.
Really, the only thing that does help is giving up on dating completely, and spending my time on things that I can actually have success at. Easier said than done though I guess.
Comment #69 May 19th, 2023 at 1:16 pm
On the content of the post: I think text based dating practice is basically useless because so much of dating is about body language. Getting the words right and the body language wrong will result in total failure.
I do think going on lots of dates is the way to go, and it is much easier in an unambiguously sexual context, like a tinder date. This reddit post was really helpful for me (I think it might be posted on a sexist subreddit, but the content of the post is fine)
https://www.reddit.com/r/GameGlobal/comments/fuz5hu/how_to_really_succeed_at_tinder_not_just_another/
tldr: your tinder account is an internet ad, internet ads are about great pictures.
Especially if your goal is casual sex it’s worth noting that looking like the guys on the cover of men’s fitness is extremely easy relative to say learning English. Most women care a little about that and some care a lot, so if you’re otherwise not succeeding it’s a worthwhile endeavor.
Two articles that helped me(both by computer scientist matt might)
https://matt.might.net/articles/hacking-strength/
https://matt.might.net/articles/least-resistance-weight-loss/
Comment #70 May 19th, 2023 at 2:47 pm
Funnily, I actually have some anecdotic evidence to support your idea.
Years ago I knew a guy who told me a story of how he “learned dating”. I think he was “on the spectrum”, but I am not a psychologist. Anyway, according to him dating and even light social interactions with women used to be terrifying experiences that he just could not figure out how to navigate.
Then he discovered a game called “Ariane”, which is a “dating simulator”, semi-pornographic game with the of objective of getting “Ariane” character to bed, or at least seeing her naked. The game had (has?) very simple mechanics (basically, a sequence of multiple choices among pre-canned possibilities), but it could be surprisingly challenging (I actually tried this game, but could not get past the first base :-)). You get slapped at the face a lot. Anyway, he became obsessed with the game, played it for months, and became rather good at it.
And then he discovered that he started to dig some basics or “courtship”. If I remember correctly, his words were “I finally was able tell North from South”. Apparently, the game was realistic enough that he could apply what he learned to the situations in his life. It was crude understanding at first, but it gave him some confidence to try interactions in real life, and then learn by trial and error. Long story short, at the time we spoke he was married, apparently happily.
In theory, an LLM could be so much better at such “dating simulating” (and I guess keep the player engaged too :-)), while actually teaching the player some basics of relationship. Not sure though the “alignment” would affect its capabilities. Of course, as with anything, an LLM could be used for both good and evil, and sometimes something intended for evil brings some good, too…
Comment #71 May 19th, 2023 at 3:00 pm
I fed GPT a representative sample of the conversation above, and then asked it why Emily (who’s supposed to be realistic) is “never once offended, disgusted, or outraged, even when Quinlan introduces the ideas of kissing and rooming together mere minutes into their first conversation”.
—
How a person reacts to an unexpected advance like that can greatly vary based on their personality, the context, their relationship with the other person, and their cultural background. In this case, Emily responded with surprise but also respect for Quinlan’s feelings, asserting her own boundaries in a clear but polite manner.
Remember, this is a realistic response based on a broad view of societal norms and patterns of behavior, but it may not be the “universal” response. Other responses could indeed be more shocked, offended, or even reciprocative depending on the individual and the circumstances. As an AI, my responses try to encompass the wide range of human behavior while respecting ethical guidelines and respecting all parties involved.
Comment #72 May 20th, 2023 at 8:42 am
This conversation feels very unsettling, and I think it’s because Emily is both the person validating Quinlan and the person on the date. Would it be better to try to get the AI to play two different roles: a person on the date (perhaps with a different name, personality and level of interest in Quinlan each time) who responds naturally, and a therapist chatbot coach who gives more explicit and reassuring feedback? You pointed out that the chatbot responses feel bad; I think that’s because using your date for validation like that would be a terrible habit to start.
Comment #73 May 20th, 2023 at 10:47 pm
I think it’s great that we’re even thinking about this. It could work, but perhaps not the heavily filtered RLHF version. Honestly, though, I have no idea what will work.
Vanessa Kosoy: While it is true that in our 30s, many who have had trouble now find ourselves married, kids, etc, myself included. This doesn’t make up for it for 2 reasons:
(a) Without having the rich experiences of others, we are more likely to settle down with someone who is not a good match. In other words, we may be settled down, but we may not actually be happy.
(b) 10+ years of longing is no joke.
I also wanted to address another poster on here, that those who can’t date seem to be able to have friends, so therefore they must be treating women differently. No, that is not it. Believe me, that is one of the first non-incel people try, to have female friends. Been there, done that. They don’t date you though. There’s not as much overlap as you might think between the skills needed for friendship vs courtship. I even learned to dance, and became quite good at one particular popular partner dance. It still doesn’t close the deal. Now you’re just a fun friend that can take a girl out for some platonic dancing!
My wife makes it all sound much simpler, she insists it’s all about how you look, and that women are just as looks-driven as men, or even more so. By that logic, I’m probably not attractive to most people, so I just had to wait a while to find the one person… Strangely enough that makes me feel slightly better, to just be ugly and not that my personality is defective.
Comment #74 May 23rd, 2023 at 5:56 am
Good post, but you misspelled Asperger’s. You wrote Aspbergers.
Comment #75 May 24th, 2023 at 8:37 pm
Scott, if you could offer commentary on your Quinlan/Emily scenario, in the spirit of Christopher #33’s , you’d probably help a lot of nerdy young folks that read your blog. Pointing out what you think Quinlan’s faux pas are, and/or what you think he (or Emily, if the nerdy role is reversed!) could have done instead (and why!) would be real live advice from someone who struggled with dating but succeeded in finding love and companionship. It could also help your readers develop empathy for both sides of the conversation, which I think is part of your ultimate goal.
There are so many scenarios in my own nerdy life where I’m awkward/afraid because I have no models for what to do or say – I’ve read/listened to Dan Savage’s sex and relationship advice for decades precisely because people ask frank questions about whether it’s ok to want what they want (general answer: yes!) and how to ask for it (lots of specific examples in the column and podcast, both called *Savage Love)*. Hearing those real, vulnerable questions and their answers discussed with acceptance, joy, and compassion feels like drinking water in the desert. But Dan is not nerdy, and so some folks who come here might not be able to connect with his advice.
I’ve seen a lot of lonely nerdy folks in your comments, young and old, and I bet it could be really valuable for them to read how you, a fellow nerdy person, identify dating/conversation strategies that seem like good ideas (asking about your date’s interests, for an example from my own brain) vs. those that seem like bad ideas (asking for a kiss only a few minutes into the first meeting), even if just for that one example exchange you provided above. How cool would it be if your wife wanted to add comments, too, to have a nerdy woman’s perspective!
Comment #76 May 24th, 2023 at 9:32 pm
Christine #75: It’s a good idea … but the truth is, I have little to add to the commentaries that GPT-4 itself will happily write on these conversations when asked! See, e.g., the comments of Christopher #33 and Interested in AI #39 in this thread.
Comment #77 May 25th, 2023 at 1:43 am
Scott #76, I think I have been unclear! I’m not talking about other potential conversations and/or commentary on them, as in #33 and #39.
I‘m talking about the original conversation, in which *you* wrote Quinlan, with the explicit intent to make, as you say, “boneheaded blunders.” What are those blunders? What are the places where he is “absurdly, ridiculously top forward”? How could he have done things differently? ChatGPT could hallucinate an explanation for us in the style of you, but why would I ask it when you are right here, and when a compassionate bit of advice from you could potentially mean a lot to some of your readers? You are a real human who got past fear of getting things wrong and are now happily married – ChatGPT doesn’t have that track record, nor that connection to people who look up to you.
Comment #78 May 25th, 2023 at 10:46 am
Christine #77: Most of my comments would just be the obvious ones, that Quinlan shouldn’t be trying to kiss Emily or arrange to room with her on a vacation within the first half hour of meeting her, not without vastly more skill than he has (though it’s striking, and amusing, Emily herself is trying to plan the logistics of the vacation within that timeframe!).
The trouble is that this isn’t the advice that nerdy guys who suffer from dating anxiety need. By and large, they already know how to talk to women about hobbies and interests, never make the slightest hint of a move, get friendzoned, and reach the age of 30 or whatever as kissless virgins. To be useful, one would need to show much longer interactions, which do include making moves that are welcomed and reciprocated. I’m not exactly the person to give this guidance!
Maybe the one useful thing I could say is that, when you try to kiss a girl, there are not two bht three broad possibilities for how she reacts:
(1) She’s disgusted, offended, ends the interaction, tells everyone you’re a creep, etc.
(2) She rebuffs the kiss, but seems comfortable and happily continues the interaction, as if to say “not yet, but try again later.”
(3) She “melts into the kiss,” closes her eyes, even kisses you back much more aggressively than you kissed her.
Despite my fears, I’ve happily never once in my life gotten reaction (1) — maybe because I never dared try when (1) seemed like even a remote possibility! Reaction (3), when it’s happened, was one of the high points of my entire time on earth, the achievement of an impossible-seeming fantasy, like actually feeling the weightlessness of space after spending your childhood dreaming of becoming an astronaut.
The surprising part for me, the unexpected part, was that (3) was sometimes preceded by (2). And that’s the central thing I’d try to communicate to the shy male nerds: that while, yes, you need to avoid reaction (1), reaction (2) is much more common and is normal and fine and shouldn’t make you fear being a creep or harasser. When a date rebuffs an advance, it doesn’t necessarily mean she despises you, or even that she finds you unattractive: it can also just mean she wants you to go slower and try again later.
Comment #79 May 25th, 2023 at 1:14 pm
With all due respect (and I respect you massively, so that’s a lot), are these quotes not a bit contradictory?
Scott #58:
and Scott #78:
As in, sometimes it sounds to me from #78 (and some of your other comments) like you eventually realized that the fear of a truly devastating, life-ruining dating experience (e.g. someone tells all your friends you’re a creep and they believe her) was just an irrational fear; something that does happen, but like getting gunned down in a gang-related shooting, is much rarer than you might think after consuming certain media.
But at other times, such as in #52, it sounds like you still believe that dating is an extremely risky activity and the world is ready to crush nerdy men for any misstep. This is what I described as feeling like an alternate reality whenever I read it, because it doesn’t match my experiences at all but when I read it enough it starts to kinda feel true anyway (probably in part because you’re an extremely compelling writer).
So which is it? Is the brutal, unforgiving world just a phantasm, one which your job should be to coach people out of believing in and help them understand that they just have to do what everyone else does and put themselves out there? Or is it really, truly reflective of your and the other commenters’ experiences (in some other way than (1), since you said yourself you’ve never experienced (1) in #78)?
My experience certainly says that it’s an irrational fear. Getting rejected most definitely sucked, but it was never anything more than a disappointment, like being rejected from a college (and the “charismatic jocks” among my friends got rejected by girls too!) But I’m not completely closed off to the possibility that maybe we’ve had genuinely different experiences? That maybe, despite loving math and puzzle hunts and being born with well below-average social skills, I’m still not “nerdy” by the definitions of this blog’s community? Or that I (and all my “similar levels of nerdiness” friends) just got extremely lucky, having run through fire and dodged every bullet? But I will need some solid evidence.
Yes. Fears need not reflect reality. A bunch of Fox News stories about gangsters running around shooting people will “resonate” with all of my conservative relatives. But I’d bet good money none of them have ever witnessed a street crime in the past two decades.
Comment #80 May 25th, 2023 at 2:08 pm
Yonah Borns-Weil #79: I mentioned one specific bad thing that never happened to me, even though I feared it enormously—probably because I feared it and therefore almost never risked a move in any even slightly ambiguous case, unlike other guys who perceived a social sanction to take such risks that I did not perceive. I didn’t tell you about the bad things that actually did happen, involving for example sexually-charged bullying and ridicule by both guys and girls, zealous shaming by authority figures, and false hopes constantly engendered and then dashed as if by a sadistic god. Every such real event took my already-great existing fears and multiplied them by a further 100x factor. I don’t feel like going into details on this blog, but maybe someday I’ll try to transmute my experiences into a novel, and I’ll also be happy to tell you in person if we have lunch or coffee sometime.
Comment #81 May 26th, 2023 at 3:13 am
Scott #80:
I am not confident, but it seems to me that the US has unusually bad bullying in school. There might be a relation between that and bad experiences of male nerds in the romantic sphere. Not saying the latter is *exclusive* to the US, but it might be significantly worse there.
Comment #82 May 26th, 2023 at 3:20 pm
It is possible I think that LLMs after a few years of improvement will still suffer from things like the inability to distinguish real talk from sarcasm. Even humans do sometimes, but LLMs may especially suffer from it. Interestingly sarcasm is a cornerstone of humor in numerous (all?) cultures, which itself is a cornerstone of dating.
This kind of plays on the theme of LLMs struggling to distinguish truth from falsehood. In everyday speech we sometimes treat falsehood as truth to get a good giggle. Poor LLM has to somehow understand our fleeting sense of humor if it wants to catch that.
Though now that I think about it, maybe it does not need to understand our sense of humor at all but instead assign some probability that we are being funny based on how weird/unlikely/out-of-character the thing we’re saying is.
Comment #83 May 28th, 2023 at 7:03 pm
Social skills are learned behaviors—which means anyone can learn, and even master, them. Smart nerds will be able to learn those skills. What about those “naturally social” people who can strike up a conversation with anyone? Those people have spent more time learning social skills (and, say, less time learning computer science).
How to learn social skills? Via Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT). CBT works to correct several common cognitive errors. Best done with a skilled counselor, but there are also self-help books and even CBT apps.
One note on learning: it involves making mistakes. In learning social skills, one should expect to make mistakes.
Comment #84 May 30th, 2023 at 1:41 pm
I think you hit the nail on the head, ChatGPT doesn’t have emotions or the capability to change its tone, which makes it a really bad dating partner.
I tried making it do some self-reflection last week
https://chat.openai.com/share/a6c6b2be-18f8-49e5-aedc-c84c97bb471a
Comment #85 June 2nd, 2023 at 10:44 pm
It seems that chatGPT needs a logical layer !
JG: Is every noetherian domain a ufd and is every ufd a noetherian domain?
ChatGPT: No, not every Noetherian domain is a Unique Factorization Domain (UFD), and not every UFD is a Noetherian domain.
A Noetherian domain is an integral domain in which every ascending chain of ideals eventually stabilizes. While a UFD is an integral domain in which every nonzero non-unit element can be expressed as a unique product of irreducible elements, up to associates.
It is true that every UFD is a Noetherian domain. This can be proven using the fact that in a UFD, every irreducible element is prime, and the ascending chain condition on ideals can be established.
However, not every Noetherian domain is a UFD. One counterexample is the ring of integers in the algebraic number field Q(sqrt(-5)), which is a Noetherian domain but not a UFD. In this domain, the element 6 has multiple irreducible factorizations, violating the uniqueness of factorization.
So, while there is an inclusion from UFDs to Noetherian domains, the converse is not true.
Comment #86 June 10th, 2023 at 10:43 am
I’m not convinced this is a good idea, mainly because I’m not convinced ai react like real people (and this dialogue with Emily certainly doesn’t sound to me like how a real 19 year old woman on a date would talk). I think it would give already confused and awkward men even stranger expectations of dating conversation than they might have formed otherwise (eg I think watching movies would result in less-weird expectations).
Comment #87 June 22nd, 2023 at 5:19 pm
Just one more late data point from a 30 year old man who has not been in a relationship: the ChatGPT part does not feel helplful to me at all, and I doubt it would have been helpful to younger me. I do not even see how it would have been helpful to younger Scott (where would ChatGPT fit in the timeline of Scott #58?).
Also, seconding Vanessa Kosoy #81 about school bullying.
Comment #88 June 28th, 2023 at 12:48 am
Scott #80:
The bad things you mention do seem really bad! They don’t however seem to correspond neatly to the problems (1) and (2) you described in comment #53 that correspond to being a straight man. So these bad things don’t feel to me as strong evidence that dating is a hellscape unique to straight men, because at least in theory those things could happen to people that aren’t straight men.
Has it happened (and has it happened frequently) that you have attempted something romantic someone and they’ve called you a creep, either to your face or to their friends? Do you know people (in person) for whom this has happened frequently?
If so, I wouldn’t necessarily change my mind since I still think that this can happen to not-straight-men, but I definitely would consider these bad occurrences as evidence for the existence of a straight-man-only-hellscape in a way I don’t currently consider the examples you gave.
Comment #89 August 11th, 2023 at 4:37 am
I just want to underscore Michael M.’s experience contra Yonah’s claim that dating and friendships need the same skills.
My personal experience: Throughout high school, I was rather unpopuplar with not many friends. However that changed a lot at the end of high school (final 2 classes) + university. I learned better social skills and made enough friends to have an amazing friend circle with very close friends I talk about with everything, but also made many friends and acquaintances that are much more casual. Also, these friends are split almost equally between men and women (for a long time it was leaning towards more women, actually). I can interact with many of those friends of both genders at absolute ease, with banter, discussing about all kinds of topics whether deep, whether sexual, whether funny, etc. I’d like to say I’m also known as somebody how is highly social, easy to talk, makes friends easily and can hold a good conversation of different kinds with strangers.
BUT… the other side is: I had absolutely no (!) romantic and sexual experience until my mid-20s. Not for the lack of trying. After that, I had two girlfriends, and one is my wife now, so the experience is similar to Scott’s. I had things like the following:
– in a board game ‘Theraphy’, close friends would rate my “Interest in Sex” (or something similar) as 0 on a scale from 0 to 10.
– my now-wife-then-girlfriend told me after we became a couple that for all the years we interacted before our relationship it was somehow “clear I didn’t have a girlfriend and that I didn’t want one”
– there would be dozens of cases where I am interested in a girl/woman, spend a lot of time with her, she clearly enjoys that time, but when I try to take a courtship step, it is nicely but firmly rejected. No, this did not only happen with girls I am in the friedzone of, it might also happen after only meeting 1-3 times casually. Still, we would later spend more time together, also on her initiative. So, my company is desired, just very rarely any kind of romantic connection/relationship.
I really have no clear idea why it is like that. My best guesses would be:
– body langauge
– the art of using your body to interact with others (even friendly ones like placing the hand on shoulder, high-fiving etc) – I know that even with friends I am sometimes awkward here but people know and like me and don’t mind, however for building attraction it’s deadly
– knowing when to escalate how.
So, yes, there is a very, very large gap between making friends and dating. You will just never realize if both come very naturally to you…
Comment #90 September 14th, 2023 at 6:21 am
Vanessa,
Yes, someone with an extremely literal mind would interpret it “I will be back later, right after the shower”. In way, you demonstrated the problem perfectly. Part of it is literality, and part of it is “special interests”, in that moment, his life revolved 100% about you and he expected the same. Also the “long shower” was not meant to be jerk, as in: a sarcastic criticism, but an observation of an apparent and unusual fact.
The central theme in autism spectrum is paying 100% attention to one thing and not multitasking. Taking words literally because 100% attention is to words, 0% to context. Coming across overly desperate in dating, because in that moment, 100% attention implying overly high effort. And then when there is a relationship, not answering texts because 100% into a project.
Comment #91 September 14th, 2023 at 6:31 am
“Infamously, just for asking for empathy for the problem, and for trying to explain its nature, I received a level of online vilification that one normally associates with serial pedophiles and mass shooters.”
Do you have an explanation for that? I maybe. There is incredibly large effect size of 1.2 women saying they want to work with people and men saying they want to work with objects. Work with objects, be interested in objects, get into a habit of seeing everything including people as objects. 10x so for nerdy/aspie men. It is really the case of have hammer, think everything is nails.
While seeing people as objects i.e. objectification is the worst sin in the world of feminism.