Bring the Brodutch family home
Another Update (Oct. 27): At Boaz Barak’s Windows on Theory blog, you can now find a petition signed by 63 prize-winning mathematicians and computer scientists—one guess which one is alphabetically first—asking that the kidnapped Israeli children be returned home. I feel confident that the pleas of Fields Medalists and Turing Award laureates will be what finally makes Hamas see the light.
Update: Every time another antisemite writes to me to excuse, justify, or celebrate Hamas’s orgy of murder and kidnapping, I make another donation to the Jewish Federations of North America to help Israeli terror victims, listing the antisemite’s name or alias in the “in honor of” field. By request, I’m sharing the link in case anyone else is also interested to donate.
Aharon Brodutch is a quantum computing researcher who I’ve known for nearly a decade. He’s worked at the Institute for Quantum Computing in Waterloo, the University of Toronto, his own startup company, and most recently IonQ. He’s thought about quantum discord, the one-clean-qubit model, weak measurements, and other topics that have long been of interest on this blog. He’s also on the paper giving an adaptive attack against Wiesner’s quantum money scheme—an application of the Elitzur-Vaidman bomb tester so simple and beautiful that I teach it in my undergrad Intro to Quantum Information Science class.
Yesterday I learned that Aharon’s sister-in-law Hagar, his niece Ofri, and his two nephews Yuval and Uriah were kidnapped by Hamas. Like Jews around the world, I’ve spent the last two weeks endlessly learning the names, faces, and life stories of hundreds of Israeli civilians who were murdered or kidnapped—and yet this news, directly affecting a colleague of mine, still managed to hit me in the gut.
I’m gratified that much of the world shares my revulsion at Hamas’s pogrom—the worst violence against Jews since the Holocaust—and joins me in wishing for the safe return of the 200 hostages as well as the destruction of Hamas, and its replacement by a governing authority that actually cares about the welfare of the Palestinian people. I’m glad that even many who call themselves “anti-Israel” or “anti-Zionist” have the basic human decency to be disgusted by Hamas. Some of the most touching messages of love and support that I got came from my Iranian friends.
All the same, for a whole week, my inbox and my blog moderation queue have been filling up with missives from people who profess to be thrilled, delighted, exhilirated by what Hamas did. They tell me that the young people at the Nova music festival had it coming, and that they hope Hamas burns the settler-colonialist Zionist entity to the ground. While some of these people praise Adolf Hitler, others parrot social-justice slogans. One of these lovely correspondents claimed that virtually all of his academic colleagues in history and social science share his attitudes, and said I had no right to lecture him as a mere computer scientist.
Meanwhile, as quantum computing founder David Deutsch has documented on his Twitter, in cities and university campuses around the world, posters with the names and faces of the children kidnapped by Hamas—just the names and faces of the kidnapped children (!)—are being torn down by anti-Israel activists. The cognitive dissonance involved in such an act is astounding, but also deeply informative about the millennia-old forces at work here.
One way I’ve been coping with this is, every time a Jew-hater emails me, I make another donation to help the victims in Israel, specifying that my donation is being made in the Jew-hater’s name. But another way to cope is simply to use this blog to make what’s at stake visceral and explicit to my readers. I got in touch with Aharon, and he asked me to share the guest post below, written by his brother Avihai. I said it was the least I could do. –Scott Aaronson
Guest Post by Avihai Brodutch
My name is Avihai Brodutch. My wife Hagar, along with our three children Ofri, Yuval, and Uriah, are being held hostage by Hamas. I want to share this message with people around the world: Children should never be involved in war. My wife and family should not be held hostage and they need to be released immediately.
Here’s my story:
I am an Israeli from Kfar Aza. My wife and I chose to build our home close to the border with Gaza, hoping for peace and relying on the Israeli government to protect our children. It was a beautiful home. Hagar, the love of my life, spent her entire life in Kibbutz Gvulot near the border. Our daughter Ofri, who is 10 years old, is an amazing, fun-loving girl who brings joy to everyone around her. Our son Yuval, 8, is smart, kind, and loving. And our youngest, Uriah, is the cutest little rascal. He is four and a half years old. All four of them are in the hands of Hamas, and I hope they are at least together.
On October 7th, our family’s life was shattered by a brutal attack. Hamas terrorists infiltrated Kfar Aza early in the morning while I was away from home. Security alerts are common in the kibbutz, and we all thought this one was no different until Hagar heard a knock on the door and saw the neighbor’s 4-year-old girl, Avigail, covered in blood. Both her parents had been murdered, and Hagar took Avigail in. She locked the door, and they all hid in the house. Soon, the entire kibbutz was filled with the sounds of bullets and bombs.
I maintained contact with Hagar, who informed me that she had secured the door and was hiding with the children. We communicated quietly through text messages until she messaged, “they are coming in.” At that point, we lost communication, and I was convinced that I had lost my wife and three children. I do not want to describe the images that raced through my mind. A day later, I received word that a neighbor had witnessed them being captured and taken to Gaza. My family was alive, and this was the happiest news I’ve ever received. However, I knew they were far from being safe.
I am asking all the governments in the world, do the right thing and help bring my family back to safety. This is not controversial, it is obvious to every human, the first priority should be bringing the families back home.
Follow
Comment #1 October 21st, 2023 at 3:00 pm
This is doubtlessly a tragedy, a terrible tragedy. That said, and please don’t take this the wrong way, I think your framing here (blaming Palestinians for this, and using this incident to drum up support for a genocidal war that is killing thousands and thousands of civilians) is very problematic. We can both sympathize with those affected by this particular tragic event, BUT ALSO acknowledge the power dynamics involved, and that they, as white settlers, have priviledge. The Palestinian children being brutally killed do not have priviledge. You can still acknowledge your white priviledge, even while you have experienced a tragedy. That is part of being conscious of the whole situation.
Why haven’t you posted anything about the Palestinian children being bombed and killed by the racist IDF?
Comment #2 October 21st, 2023 at 3:14 pm
Horrific account. Thank you for sharing. And always more visceral and heartbreaking when the events directly involve someone you know. Perhaps you could post a link to a charity that you or the Brodutch family recommend. A tiny way for readers to express our solidarity with you, your family, and the Brodutch family.
Comment #3 October 21st, 2023 at 3:20 pm
Philosophy Wrestler #1: Comments like yours make my point better than I could. I share photos of my colleague’s kidnapped niece and nephews, terrified and under threat as we speak of being murdered any hour, and the best you can manage is “doubtlessly a tragedy, a terrible tragedy,” before pivoting to the evils of those now struggling to bring the hostages home?
I don’t want any civilians on either side to die. I’m sad that many more on both sides will die before this over. Crucially, though, unlike Hamas, Israel does not target civilians—blood libels (like the now-debunked viral lie that Israel bombed the hospital) to the contrary. Israel targets Hamas fighters who cynically hide among civilians. Anyone incapable of making elementary moral distinctions like that one disqualifies themselves from the conversation.
I believe that the best thing for the suffering children in Gaza would be, like I said in the post, the destruction of Hamas and its replacement by a governing authority that actually cares about the welfare of the Palestinian people. In the meantime, I also strongly support President Biden’s efforts to broker the delivery of humanitarian aid—even though Hamas is already taking advantage of that to smuggle weapons.
Comment #4 October 21st, 2023 at 4:11 pm
NOTE: “Philosophy Wrestler” submitted another comment, repeating the medieval blood libel that the Jews bombed the hospital, and comparing the hundreds of children murdered by Hamas to a burglar who was shot while breaking into someone’s house—“tragic, sure, but you really can’t blame the homeowner.” He is permanently banned from this blog. And I’ll make another donation to the victims in Israel, in honor of this latest antisemite who fancies himself a philosopher.
Comment #5 October 21st, 2023 at 4:29 pm
ShtetlFan #2: Thanks so much! For one suggestion of where to donate, see the new update at the top of the post.
Comment #6 October 21st, 2023 at 5:26 pm
Scott, please PLEASE don’t take your impressions of public sentiment from the internet on this; it tends to amplify certain voices in echo chambers. Of course you already know this, but I find it’s really, really easy to forget that fact when I’m actually faced with an internet echo chamber. A small proportion of a lot of people is a still a lot, and it can look like a consensus even when you logically know it isn’t.
In a recent poll, 84% of Americans said they supported Israel more, vs 16% who supported Hamas more. Even out of the 16%, probably a decent number of people don’t really know what’s going on at all, and may be confusing Hamas with Fatah in the West Bank.
What do your friends and colleagues think? (While still a biased sample, I find my friends to be significantly a more representative sample than social media.) I’m guessing nearly all of yours are horrified by Hamas, and even the ones who seem far more on the pro-Palestine and less pro-Israel side will still probably be open to hearing you.
Comment #7 October 21st, 2023 at 5:37 pm
Do you think PhilosophyWrestler (who apparently cannot spell his own favorite word, “privilege”) is for real? Sounds just like a troll who wants to get on your nerves.
Comment #8 October 21st, 2023 at 5:46 pm
Yonah Borns-Weil #6: I’m of course deeply grateful that the vast majority of Americans are against the murder of Jews. But I don’t know how long that will last. Just this afternoon, a colleague pointed me to a new poll showing that, among Americans aged 18-24, a very large fraction are on the side of Hamas. And of course, if you spend most of your life at universities like I do, then it’s extremely hard to ignore that fraction—you might even encounter them spreading blood libels on a typical walk across campus. Anyway, here are the relevant poll results:
In general in this conflict do you side more with Israel or Hamas?
48% of 18-24s: Hamas
Do you think the Hamas killing of 1200 Israeli civilians on Israel can be justified by the grievances of Palestinians or is it not justified?
51% of 18-24: can be justified
Some people say Hamas and Israel both have fairly equally just causes. Others says that there is no moral equivalency between the terrorist murders of Hamas and the actions of Israel. Which is closer to your view?
64% of 18-24s: both sides have equally just causes (36%: no moral equivalency)
Should America stand with Israel in this conflict, back Hamas or not be involved at all?
18-24s: 30% stand with Israel, 29% back Hamas, 41% not be involved
Do you think it’s true that Hamas terrorists killed 1200 Israeli civilians by shooting them, raping and beheading people including whole families, kids and babies or is that a false story?
18-24s: 32% a false story
Do you think the recent attack on Israel was a terrorist attack or not?
18-24s: 36% no
Do you think that the long-term answer to the Israel-Palestinian dispute is for…?
26% of 18-24s: Israel should be ended and given to Hamas and the Palestinians
Comment #9 October 21st, 2023 at 7:04 pm
Scott. I want to believe you have good intentions here, but you dismiss the claim that Israel targets civilians as a “blood libel,” when in fact Israel has chosen to cut off supplies of food and water to the entire region, giving a nominal warning to evacuate but deliberately making it impossible for anyone to do so. That *is* targeting civilians, very directly; I admit I have little patience for any “elementary moral distinctions” to the contrary.
Isaac Herzog outright stated that no one in Gaza is innocent, presumably including the almost-half of them who are children and weren’t born yet when Hamas came to power. Israel’s response in general seems characterized by unrestrained fury, which, understandable as it is (and the existence of Hamas is understandable in the same terms), risks perpetrating worse crimes than Hamas is capable of. You’re absolutely right about the evils of Hamas, a viciously anti-Semitic and murderous group who also display no care for the lives or welfare of the people whose freedom they supposedly fight for. I just wish you could direct some of your righteous anger towards your own side.
I’ve decided to post this under my real name, though I usually use a pseudonym. You’re welcome to make any donations in my name that you see fit, and if you feel that this comment is bannable I’ll refrain from posting here again.
Comment #10 October 21st, 2023 at 7:39 pm
Robby Dixon #9: The claim that Israel deliberately targeted the hospital has, at this point, the character of a blood libel. To believe it, you have to believe that all the independent experts who explained why no, it was indeed an errant Islamic Jihad missile are also in on the worldwide Zionist conspiracy.
As for evacuating civilians to the south of Gaza, the entire point is to get them out of the line of fire. The total blockade, recently loosened, is because as soon as you allow anything in, Hamas smuggles in more Iranian weapons with which to kill more Jews—that’s what Hamas cares about, rather than helping the people supposedly in their charge, and it’s what they’ve done again and again.
You can certainly question the wisdom and morality of both of these policies. I have my own questions about them (while being cognizant that I don’t actually see the relevant intel). Certainly Bibi’s coalition contains crazies who the actual professionals in the IDF will need to keep at bay, and the Biden administration will need to keep applying pressure to make sure that happens.
All the same, even under the most punishing sane criteria, nothing in Israel’s response so far belongs to the same moral universe as gunning down children in their bedrooms and burning families alive who are huddled in their shelters, while proudly filming it for the world to see. Again, anyone who can’t see that is no longer part of a civilized conversation.
Comment #11 October 21st, 2023 at 8:48 pm
This is a tragic story. This Holocaust-level pogrom will never be fully recovered by Israel, and will stain forever the Palestinian movement (assuming it survives), and their apologists.
One thing that can help against the apologists of atrocities is education. In my experience it is always (100% of cases) the same claim that comes up: Israel is a land stolen from the indigenous Arab Palestinians. Until this false narrative is rebuked, there is no chance for peace. Those people truly believe that Arabs have a claim on Israel, while the Jews are merly colonizers who stole the land from the Arabs. This story is incorrect. There is no evidence showing that majority of Palestinians have ancestry in the region going back before the middle of 19th century. Most Palestinians are considered to be descendants of Arab immigrants who arrived in parallel to the Jews during the 19th and 20th centuries from Egypt, Jordan and Syria. That’s the root of the conflict, and it cannot be avoided anymore I’m afraid.
Comment #12 October 21st, 2023 at 9:02 pm
Theorist #11 — then there is also the British betrayal of WW-I of course, which I suspect (but do not know for a fact) that many Arabs still resent.
Scott#10
> You can certainly question the wisdom and morality of both of these policies
What troubles me most about these policies is not their morality (that also troubles me, but less so). What troubles me most is the elephant in the room which continues to be ignored.
Let’s assume that all the operations succeed in the best imaginable way, which is all hostages are freed, no more one person on either side dies, no additional “collateral” suffering, no additional structure damage, and all Hamas representative captured and brought to justice, or killed while resisting their capture.
I personally think it will be *much* worse than this, especially on the Palestinian side, but let’s assume for this incredible outcome for the sake of the argument.
Then what? Do you think Israeli now can live in peace without further attacks? It’s obvious to me that it will *not* be that way because:
1) many other groups still believe that Israel has no right to exist and will leverage what below for some counteroffensive in the future
2) many Palestinians kids have *already* suffered great loss, in a population which has been greatly proved for years and they will feel deeply hate for what Israel is doing now
3) I think at least in some part of the Arab culture there is less value for the human life than in other cultures (both of perpetrators — think suicide attacks — and victims — as these horrible facts have proven)
4) many Palestinians (if not most) will have nothing to lose
As such, even if Hamas is completely destroyed as I assumed above, something “new” will be formed which will effectively take Hamas’ place once these kids grow up. And history will repeat itself.
I realistically think it will be even worse, because I think Hamas will not be completely destroyed so whatever come next will not start from scratch, and because Palestinian suffering will be greater than what has happened already, so hate and recruiting will be easier for them.
Note that in this, I’m not saying “poor Palestinians, we should sympathize for their sufferings” (I know many say that but then we enter into the useless argument about comparing if that’s worse or if Israeli’s suffering for Hamas attacks).
I’m just saying these Palestinian’s sufferings will create more conditions of hate for Israel and more people with “nothing to lose” to join Hamas or what will come next.
So, based on this obvious observation, I think these actions by Israel will make matters worse in the long term and I am still shocked that so few talk about that (only recently NPR posted a lone article slightly mentioning this, see the last comment to the previous blog post).
What would I propose instead? I would have threatened what Israel is actually doing (siege and military attack) and attempted negotiations with a third party for the release of the hostages and the surrender of the perpetrators to justice, giving great publicity to these efforts. Only after several weeks of failed attempts (which I fear would have failed), I would have done what is done now, but in much smaller scale. I believe that would have achieved the same (or better) immediate result which this all-out approach will achieve, in terms of freed hostage and captured terrorists. But it would have shown great moral force and respect to the Palestinians, which would have made future recruitment efforts by Hamas (or its successor) much harder.
Comment #13 October 21st, 2023 at 9:13 pm
Theorist #11: It occurred to me that, whenever you see someone defend Hamas, you know they’re making at least two separate errors, a moral and an intellectual one. Either
(1) the basic humanity to realize that gunning down terrified children in their bedrooms is evil, regardless of what your grievance is, or
(2) enough curiosity and knowledge of history to understand how the only reasonable solution was always some sort of partition, and how at crucial junctures exactly one side agreed to a partition, and it’s not the side gunning down the children in their bedrooms—
either, alone, would suffice to change entirely what comes out of their mouths.
Comment #14 October 21st, 2023 at 9:15 pm
Heart wrenching to read that…
I hope he, and many others, can be reunited with their families safe and sound
Wondering what your take is on this recent article from the Atlantic. It seems to rest the blame for 7/10 mainly on Netanyahu, but brings up the important question of what Israelis want Israel to look like in the not-so-distant future.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/israel-democracy-judicial-reform-netanyahu-hamas-attacks/675713/
Comment #15 October 21st, 2023 at 9:26 pm
In debates on the Israel Hamas conflict I often read the argument that “since Hamas uses Civilians as a shield to hide behind hence bombing civillian targetsb is justified”
In this context just as a thought experiment, suppose we in the USA had a murderer, say even a horrible serial killer, and we tracked him down but somehow is hiding in a densely populated high-rise with 1000 innocent citizens that he is holding hostage with him as a civilian shiled.
Would we ever bomb the building ( or say gas it or some other such strategy that is broad) to get at the one evil guy?
You may say, ah but we have swat teams and sieges which are better alternatives. However none of them are risk free. Casualties happen with feet on the ground and we accept them by putting our policemen at risk when a drone with a bomb would be a low risk way to do it. Conversely even in international conflicts there are more surgical strategies of getting at specific evil opponents.
Does the citizen vs enemy citizen distinction make the “bomb to kill 1x bad guys along with 100x Civilians” option morally palatable to us? I know we have always used this option in war but I am talking about how people morally justify it.
Forget the Israel vs Hamas specific case. I am sure Israel is not the only country using this logic. In the general case of an evil adversary hiding behind innocent civilians why do we relax our inhibitions the moment national borders get involved.
Comment #16 October 21st, 2023 at 9:27 pm
I read today that UN Secretary General Guterres was at a summit in Egypt, proposing three priorities, release of all hostages, entry of humanitarian aid to Gaza, and no escalation of hostilities. That gave me some hope that diplomacy could play a role in releasing the hostages.
Comment #17 October 21st, 2023 at 9:47 pm
The really tragic question is whether liberating hostages should take precedence over annihilating Hamas. As someone who was fortunate enough not to have my child kidnapped by Hamas, I am in no position to render an opinion.
Comment #18 October 21st, 2023 at 10:34 pm
Solidarity with the Brodutch family, and all families whose loved ones have been taken hostage.
Scott. To reiterate Dixon’s point, how does the *complete* siege of Gaza, esp. the part where they cut off water (I don’t see how Iran can smuggle weapons in if just water was let in), and how the head of IDF declaring Gaza residents animals, and how president of Israel declaring the entire Gaza population responsible, are all actions and rhetoric that are consistent with “Israel does not target civilians”?
The entire occupation itself is also against human rights (sth I imagine you’ve stated in the past), and it is also not consistent with that statement as it directly targets civilians and its maintenance requires continued violence, which of course will have backlash.
To be clear, Hamas is a terrorist organization and responsible for its actions, and has to be utterly destroyed, and I do hope that the world achieves that. But _how_ they achieve that is very *important*.
Is Israel’s current approach not sth that America did when it attempted to “destroy” Al-Qaeda or Taliban: By killing one, you are also killing quite a few civilians, and each of them have families that will remember, and will join the fight against you. Eventually, the number of terrorists may actually end up becoming larger than at the beginning.
Unless we address the root causes of this very very complicated problem, the only options are complete ethnic cleansing or displacement of the Palestinians, the latter of which is, in my opinion, the aim of the current policy of Israel’s government.
Comment #19 October 21st, 2023 at 11:04 pm
Scott and Avihai,
This is a tragedy. My heart goes out to you and your family and I hope that they are released and come home soon.
This is an unimaginable cruelty, yet also somehow not unexpected from terrorists of Hamas. I hope we can all see a day when millions of Israelis, Palestinians, Syrians, Iranians, etc. can live in peace and freedom from fear of Hamas, Hezbollah, IRGC, and the rest of this cult of death.
Comment #20 October 21st, 2023 at 11:44 pm
shtetl-fan #18: You’re right, I don’t see a good reason for shutting off the water. Maybe someone else can explain the thinking there? If Israel just wants as many bargaining chips as possible for the release of its hostages, then what happens when Hamas calls the bluff, and lets thousands of Gazan civilians die while holding out for what it actually cares about (eg the release of Hamas terrorists from Israeli jails)?
Comment #21 October 22nd, 2023 at 12:09 am
Scott #20 I am at a loss to ascertain what Hamas(‘s leadership) *actually* care for (apart from the destruction of Israel, as attested in their founding documents). Are they so exalted as to only care about “the world to come”, or are they only perceived as being too eager to self-immolate, while, in fact, in no particular hurry to leave this world involuntarily?
Comment #22 October 22nd, 2023 at 4:21 am
Horrible news Scott. What a tragedy for the family 🙁
Scott #20:
I have no specific insight into the question of turning off the water. I have a cynical take that might be true – it’s possible that Israel is saying things that it won’t actually do, to have bargaining chips against the international community. E.g. saying “We’ll shut off all the water”, then when the US puts pressure on Israel, agreeing to turn it back on as a sign of listening to American demands. Cynical, but I think this is how a lot of this stuff works behind the scenes (and it only works because people let it work – you get more points for saying you’ll do a bad thing and then not doing it, rather than doing the good thing from the start. As Israel is amply aware of, given that it *hasn’t* actually slaughtered Palestinians, and yet people think Israel is comparable to Hamas!)
shtetl-fan #18: I dislike the rhetoric coming from Israel too. I think it’s worth separating the rhetoric from the actions, or at least being aware that there’s a big difference.
E.g. everyone was incredibly angry that Israel supposedly gave Gazans 24 hours to flee, claiming that this wasn’t enough time and that there is no way that with so little time, Israel won’t cause a massacre. It’s been a week and a half since then – and Israel hasn’t committed the worried-about massacre. I don’t think *anyone* that was loudly shouting at Israel has changed their mind about this showing that Israel is reckless or not.
> The entire occupation itself is also against human rights
So, what do you think Israel should do? Honest question. I’m an Israeli leftist, and have been struggling with an answer to this most of my life, and more so in the last two weeks.
Despite everything else that Israel has done that is bad (and believe my I have no love of the current government), I think at its base there’s just one big issue here – the Palestinians want something that we can never give them. They want Israel to be “given back” to them. Never mind the history and whether this is a correct, moral desire on their side – in any case, it’s not happening. The State of Israel is not going to up and move. A compromise has to be reached.
And at the end of the day, it’s very clear (to me at least) that Israel *has* tried to compromise *many* times in the past. Not as much as it should, and it’s acted very badly since then, but if there were a *real* chance at peace, without a continuing threat to Israel – Israel would take it in a heartbeat. And the same just cannot be said of the Palestinians, not right now. Partly because they have terrible leaders, partly because of Israel’s actions over the years, there’s a lot of reasons, but the bottom line is that it doesn’t matter.
I really do believe Sam Harris’s idea on this – if the Palestinians were to lay down their weapons, there would be peace tomorrow. If Israel were to lay down its weapons, it would be dead tomorrow. I’m sorry – I’m an Israeli and want peace. But given that dynamic, what are we supposed to do? Honestly asking.
Comment #23 October 22nd, 2023 at 5:08 am
AG #17: you (and many others) are implicitly making a dangerous conceptual error – namely, that “annihilating Hamas” is a thing. IMHO it makes no more sense that “annihilating Vietcong” did in Vietnam. It’s a dangerous and lazy mental cliche. What would it mean to “annihilate Hamas”? Kill literally every Hamas combatant currently alive? (not possible) Create conditions so that Hamas cannot come back – which conditions and how? Burn everything down, kill all Palestinians? (note: the latter certainly solves the problem) Permanently erode support for Hamas so it can’t replenish its numbers? This is _very_ far from obvious and using “annihilating Hamas” in a black box way as a building block of any policies or arguments, without examining this notion in detail, cannot lead to sound propositions.
Comment #24 October 22nd, 2023 at 5:10 am
Also, an observation – there are no Palestinian quantum computing experts mourning deaths of their families in Gaza, nor are there Palestinian CS theorists making statements about the conflicts. Why? The Palestinians are too damn poor to afford educating quantum computing experts. Why the poverty? [left as an exercise to the reader]
Comment #25 October 22nd, 2023 at 5:13 am
I think Israel only supplies something like 10% of Gaza’s water, the rest comes from wells and desalination. This remainder of 90% is also threatened because of the shortage of electricity, some of which can be supplied through solar panels, and in other cases is made by generators running on fuel, which is also currently restricted by Israel.
The problems with fuel and water are the same, viz. Hamas as the governing entity is able and willing to take as much of it for its needs as possible, including, crucially, fuel and water for powering and sustaining the underground tunnels where its forces are hiding. This apparently already happened (viz. the posted-and-then-deleted tweets by UNRWA about Hamas taking fuel from its compound).
My understanding is that the Geneva conventions and other international law in fact address this sort of situation and say that in a siege situation, Israel must allow humanitarian aid to Gaza *only* if it can be assured that the aid is not used by the military of the other side. There’s a mechanism of designating a third-party “Protecting Power”, agreed to by both Israel and Hamas, which can send its force in to accompany aid and make sure it’s distributed to civilians. Perhaps that could happen.
>#18 “are all actions and rhetoric that are consistent with “Israel does not target civilians”?”
I think it’s pretty clear that if Israel deliberately targeted civilians, given the volume of the bombardment and the density in Gaza, we’d have seen hundreds of thousands of deaths by now.
Comment #26 October 22nd, 2023 at 5:14 am
Shetl-fan #18:
“To be clear, Hamas is a terrorist organization and responsible for its actions, and has to be utterly destroyed, and I do hope that the world achieves that”
Amen to that. Maybe it is interesting to adopt an empirical viewpoint: Let’s consider terrorist organisations which were indeed successfully destroyed ( or even mostly) in the past and how it was done.
Examples that come to my mind are the IRA, Red Army Faction / Bader Meinhof and some of the Indian ones like ULFA or the khalistani seperstists ( ignoring a recent revival).
Maybe we can count Al Quida too?
Perhaps there’s something to learn from these and more examples.
Comment #27 October 22nd, 2023 at 5:48 am
Scott, it is possible to have two ideas going on at the same time.
You can be against Hamas and against the crimes of the IDF. They are not mutually exclusive.
Please don’t say the hospital bombing is not IDF etc. For decades the UN has requested and so has numerous organisations access to document independently on crimes and not once granted by the IDF.
Just recently the IDF killed a journalist, first saying it was the Palestinians, long later admitting but saying it was an accident.
Just because you call it collateral damage doesn’t make it so.
By the way, I hope you know your history. It is well documented that Hamas was supported by the Israeli intelligence to create division in the Palestinian authority. You cannot divide and conquer and now say why isn’t there anyone to negotiate with.
By the over one million lives are affected in Gaza now. I guess anything is justified right. I mean Israel will only stop once all Palestinians leave to neighbouring countries.
It is amazing for a people who talk so much about genocide and wanting to go back to some promised land for religious reasons but refuses even basic decency in sharing it with others who can have equal such claims on the same land.
Comment #28 October 22nd, 2023 at 5:58 am
By the way, with regards to your comment that the IDF doesn’t actively target civilians. Well for someone who doesn’t actively target they sure do manage to kill in the thousands. And also not let independent authorities investigate.
And then you complain why Trump exits the ICC, world international criminal court. Why is it hard for Israel to let independent authorities investigate if they are not actively targeting? If they didn’t bomb the hospital, give the evidence to an independent authority and verify. Except that has never happened and never will.
You cannot claim any moral high ground whilst your actions amount to :” Anything goes, and if someone gets killed, it was an accident”.
Comment #29 October 22nd, 2023 at 7:17 am
Already sent a few posts, not sure if you allowed those or not, but here is relevant information for all those taking some sort of moral high ground when it comes to IDF vs Hamas..
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/
“When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake,” one Israeli official who had worked in Gaza in the 1980s said in a 2009 interview with the Wall Street Journal’s Andrew Higgins. “But at the time nobody thought about the possible results.”
Higgins’s article is worth reading in full. He goes on to outline the type of assistance the Israelis initially gave Yassin, whom the PLO at one time deemed a “collaborator,” and Gaza’s other Islamists:
Israel’s military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy. The university was one of the first targets hit by Israeli warplanes in the [2008-9 Operation Cast Lead].
Yassin’s Mujama would become Hamas, which, it can be argued, was Israel’s Taliban: an Islamist group whose antecedents had been laid down by the West in a battle against a leftist enemy. Israel jailed Yassin in 1984 on a 12-year sentence after the discovery of hidden arms caches, but he was released a year later. The Israelis must have been more worried about other enemies.
Comment #30 October 22nd, 2023 at 8:22 am
Souciance: Israel has already published its evidence that it didn’t attack the hospital on Twitter. My guess (I might be wrong) is that they’ll have no problem submitting to third-party arbitration about the matter after the war is over.
I agree that Israel made a grave mistake in tolerating Hamas for decades, as less bad than some imagined alternative. Hopefully that ends now.
If anyone in Israel thinks the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza will just leave, that person is delusional. I think that the least bad outcome, for now, would be for the PA to take over in Gaza after Hamas is decapitated. Meanwhile, as long as I’m hoping, I hope that Bibi’s total, catastrophic failure to protect the citizens of Israel will lead to his downfall (and subsequent imprisonment on corruption charges), and that a more moderate government will take over that’s once again willing to pursue a two-state solution with the PA.
Comment #31 October 22nd, 2023 at 8:25 am
Scott #13:
I would add that in response to the last Israeli peace offer, the Palestinians initiated the 2nd “Intifada” that targeted civilians of all ages, using suicide bombers. Some of my friends who were on the moderate (“left”) side of the political spectrum lost all hope for a peaceful settlement in our time because of that.
Comment #32 October 22nd, 2023 at 8:40 am
Scott #10,
“All the same, even under the most punishing sane criteria, nothing in Israel’s response so far belongs to the same moral universe as gunning down children in their bedrooms and burning families alive who are huddled in their shelters, while proudly filming it for the world to see. Again, anyone who can’t see that is no longer part of a civilized conversation.”
Just so. 100%.
Comment #33 October 22nd, 2023 at 8:45 am
What more targeting of civilians do you want than dropping tons of bombs in a city? Excuse Hamas for not having the decency to go to a more open ground to facilitate the bombing. Sarcasm aside, the only sensible thing for Hamas to do in face of Israel’s indiscriminate murder of civilians is to surrender. They won’t surrender.
I know Aharon personally and am devastated by this news.
I’m taking a vow of silence on this topic as talking to people from either side of this debate enrages me.
Comment #34 October 22nd, 2023 at 9:40 am
WA, I think that is a good idea seeing as how you have a personal relationship with the person whose innocent family is being held hostage, but nevertheless took the opportunity to criticize the only individuals trying to actually get his family back to participate in blood libel against his people.
Comment #35 October 22nd, 2023 at 9:47 am
84 year old grandmother still being held hostage by Hamas: https://twitter.com/TheLeadCNN/status/1715156857898041597
Comment #36 October 22nd, 2023 at 10:31 am
Hi Scott, I don’t have anything intellectual to say because my brain is fried from the birth of our second son, Zachary, 3 weeks ago and the sleep deprivation associated – but I just wanted to reach out and say I’m sending love and support to you and your family and all of Israel at this time, and I hope the IDF is able to swiftly extinguish the threat from Hamas so that Israelis can live in peace and security.
Comment #37 October 22nd, 2023 at 10:36 am
Scott #20:
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-768005
Israel has also threatened to cease supplying water to Gaza. Still, Israeli water is not an issue, added Eyal Pinko of the Department of Political Studies at Bar-Ilan University.
“Israel supplies only 10% of water to Gaza. So, even if we stop our share, they will still have water,” he contended.
Comment #38 October 22nd, 2023 at 10:54 am
Philosophy Wrestler #1
So evil IDF are killing Palestinian children because they are racist and want to kill Palestinian children? Or maybe, just maybe, they are trying to reach some other goal, and Palestinian children being killed are a responsibility of Hamas, which deliberately and consciously uses “their own” civilians as a shield, hiding from the perfectly predictable response to their own attack against civilian population, which had literally no other goal than to provoke the killing of civilian Palestinians you blame the IDF for (and to instigate that very blame from presumably literate people with functioning brain like yourself)?
Comment #39 October 22nd, 2023 at 11:15 am
Harharhar, seems the Jew shitlets got a lesson what happens when one colonize the land of the Muslim…
Comment #40 October 22nd, 2023 at 11:28 am
Just to address some comments here that are the common textbook “arguments” against Israel.
1) “Israel targets civilians, because there are many civilian casualties.”
This is incorrect. The notion of targeting civilians means a deliberate intention to do so. There is no reliable documentation in the history of Israel of any command to deliberately kill civilians. There is also no documented incidents where this has ever happened (except for dubious accounts 75 years ago in the Independence War of 1948).
As for the Palestinians, this is their preferred combat mode: kill civilians, the vulnerable, kids, women, teenagers, hijack airplanes, bomb restaurants and clubs (including multiple accounts of torture and rape. From 1921, 1929 till 2023).
2) “Even if Israel does not target deliberately civilians, it causes disproportionate civilian death and suffering that amounts to indefensible war crimes”.
This is also incorrect. By international law, tragic collateral damage is legal. The proportionality of an act of war is defined to be the *relation* between the *military objective* and the means taken to achieve this objective, assuming the objective is legal. Clearly, if a proscribed terror organization builds its headquarter below a civilian building, bombing the building is proportionate and legal under international law. In the case of Israel, it also first warns the civilians that the building is going to be bombed, adding an even stronger layer of legality to the action.
3) “Regardless of the supposed legality of Israel’s action, seeing the amount of suffering and casualties, it is still indefensible”.
This is a matter of personal opinion. But knowing that the US is more complicit than Israel in such tactics, bombing and killing and causing the death of tens of thousands of civilians in far away regions like Afghanistan, Iraq, etc., it is not a defensible moral position to pick on a tiny and frail country like Israel, surrounded by religious dictatorships and recognized terror groups, while not arguing first for the dismantling of the US as “a rogue nation”. In morality we need to start with the bigger evil first.
4) “Regardless of the moral and legal positions of the Israeli policies, these policies are simply dumb because they only perpetuate the conflict and breed more suffering causing a fruitful ground for the recruitment of more terrorists who feel desperate.”
This is a misunderstanding of the psychology and social aspects of terrorism. With the risk of over simplifying things, Islamic terror is not caused by “desperation”. It’s the opposite. Islamic terror is caused, in simple terms, by the hope and the feeling of exhilaration, in front of a promised great success to fulfill its religious (and sometimes national) goals. As the end seems more reachable (for instance, the annihilation of Israel, or in front of a perceived weakness of Israel or the Jews), the terror only increases, because the motivation comes from the hope of success. This can be seen in other similar Islamic terror groups like ISIS.
Comment #41 October 22nd, 2023 at 11:49 am
Here is a recognized expert on international law for those so interested in debating “proportionality” with a terror organization who openly burns children to death while their hands are tied behind their backs:
“The international law aspects of this are, of course, extremely important and myths about Israel’s conduct about international law have been playing a significant role in this crisis and in the coverage of it. Perhaps I can be clear that from an international role perspective, Israel does not only have the right to a robust response, but under the convention on the prevention and the punishment of genocide, the crime of genocide, it also has an affirmative obligation, like the rest of the signatories to that convention, to make sure, that “never again” means never again.
In compliance with its obligations under international law to minimize civilian casualties, Israel is issuing warnings of where it will be striking Hamas terrorist infrastructure, it is a practice used by all law abiding countries, it is telling them to leave in order to try to save there lives and of course there has also been mass evacuation of Israeli civilians from the north and south of Israel, away from the borders with terrorist organizations, but there is another myth here, that Israel has an obligation to supply Hamas terrorists with electricity and other goods, and that is without basis in international law, Israel is not required to fund or assist Hamas war efforts as it attempts to butcher Jews and of course since Hamas violently seized control in 2007, Israel has continued to provide a part of Gaza’s fuel, electricity, water and also medical care to palestinian civilians that Hamas neglects and abuses. That isn’t viable during a military campaign where Hamas exploits these transfers, stealing supplies and penetrating humanitarian organizations to mask its terror operations and to launder funds.”
https://twitter.com/welt_woman/status/1716091678132412818
Comment #42 October 22nd, 2023 at 11:53 am
If anything could be arranged there would be so many volunteers to become hostages in exchange for release of this beautiful family. Volunteers however would not provide the sheer terror value Hamas receives from holding innocent women and children.
Comment #43 October 22nd, 2023 at 12:00 pm
Saudi Expat #38: As usual, letting your comment through so others can see what’s at stake. To be perfectly explicit, in this case, “teaching the Jew shitlets a lesson” means deliberately burning 4-year-old children alive in their homes.
Comment #44 October 22nd, 2023 at 12:02 pm
As much as the future of Gaza looks totally bleak (not that it ever looked remotely bright for a second), let’s all remember that, for over a year, we’ve heard Jews from around the world say that the Israeli democracy was on the verge of death, and now it’s officially dead (if there was any doubt left).
It should be crystal clear now, for Israeli Jews and Arab Palestinians, that there’s just no sequence of moves left on the board that can lead to a situation where either of them (let alone both at the same time) can find happiness in that piece of land.
It’s now in the phase “if we’re gonna go down and lose, we’re gonna take them down with us”, or the almost equivalent “if we gotta go down to take them down, it’s worth it”.
Comment #45 October 22nd, 2023 at 12:03 pm
Karen #36: Huge congratulations on the birth of your second child!!! Hope everything is going well.
Comment #46 October 22nd, 2023 at 12:09 pm
I’m appalled that Israel is going to have to resort to screening the unutterable footage of Hamas terrorist attacks – filmed by Hamas themselves – to the international pool of journalists who continue to ignorantly pass along the blood libel to all-too-willingly ignorant people in this thread: https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1716124806666416555
Israel is being backed into doing this – showing footage of utter depravity and horror – because if they don’t we will continue to see holocaust-level-denial.
Comment #47 October 22nd, 2023 at 12:50 pm
Rahul, #26 :
You forgot the LTTE in Srilanka, the pioneers of suicide bombing.
In the Bhagawad Geeta, at the beginning of the great Kurukshetra war, Arjuna is depressed. He doesn’t want to kill his uncles, his cousins – all of whom are arrayed on the other side. He says he cannot fight.
Krishna urges and convinces Arjuna that it is his duty to fight a righteous war, even if it comes with painful consequences.
It is terrible to learn what the polling reveals about 18 to 24 yos in America – that 48% of them support Hamas. It has been decades in the making.
One positive side-effect of this tragedy is that the people who think in identity categories i.e. the woke people, have completely revealed themselves as the supporters of the killing of even little children, as intended targets (not side-effects) of the Hamas attack.
I wish comments like the first by Philosophy Wrestler were just trolls, but that comment is also the implication of woke ideology. Even for those children, their identity determines (for the wokes) that even these children are not victims but persecutors!!!
Comment #48 October 22nd, 2023 at 12:51 pm
Theorist, Israel, #39
“This is also incorrect. By international law, tragic collateral damage is legal.”
Does that cover the WW2 allied bombing of German and Japanese cities, e.g. the firestorm of the Tokyo bombing killing between 80,000-100,000 civilians in one night, with one million left homeless?
Or: an organization like Hamas clearly will never have access to the resources of a typical “industrial-military complex”, but it doesn’t sound impossible that they could eventually procure a single “small” 1KT nuke (obtained through black market), or an equivalent one big truck bomb, and they would detonate that single giant bomb in the heart of an Israeli city, claiming that their goals was to take down the Israeli military and political centers of that city, or just take down “Bibi” specifically, would the collateral damage be legal in that case?
If the answer is “no, because the goal doesn’t justify the means”, then what’s the legal acceptable ratio of civilian casualty per enemy combatant destroyed? Does it matter whether it’s achieved with one big bomb vs ten thousand bombs?
And what’s that ratio in the case of the current Gaza bombings/air strikes?
Comment #49 October 22nd, 2023 at 12:55 pm
fred #42: I haven’t given up hope. If there’s a tiny particle of good, it’s that Israeli society, which was hopelessly divided just a few weeks ago, is now united as maybe it hasn’t been for half a century. And Netanyahu, the man more responsible than any other for the division and also for preventing the peace process, is disgraced and seems finally finished as a leader. Hopefully a better government will follow.
Comment #50 October 22nd, 2023 at 1:09 pm
Scott Says:
“Comment #30 October 22nd, 2023 at 8:22 am
Souciance: Israel has already published its evidence that it didn’t attack the hospital on Twitter. My guess (I might be wrong) is that they’ll have no problem submitting to third-party arbitration about the matter after the war is over.
I agree that Israel made a grave mistake in tolerating Hamas for decades, as less bad than some imagined alternative. Hopefully that ends now.
If anyone in Israel thinks the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza will just leave, that person is delusional. I think that the least bad outcome, for now, would be for the PA to take over in Gaza after Hamas is decapitated. Meanwhile, as long as I’m hoping, I hope that Bibi’s total, catastrophic failure to protect the citizens of Israel will lead to his downfall (and subsequent imprisonment on corruption charges), and that a more moderate government will take over that’s once again willing to pursue a two-state solution with the PA.”
I wouldn’t keep my hopes on Israel sending that evidence anywhere that is remotely objective. Past records speak for themselves.
I would formulate it differently. Hamas was actually something that Israel drew advantage over. Except that came with a double edge sword. Whilst the existence of Hamas benefited the hardliners like Netanyahu because they could point to lack of leadership and so could forget about any negotiations, they forget that Hamas at its core is a paramilitary religious force and now just bit them back. This is a bit similar to how the Americans supported Bin Laden when the Soviet attacked Afghanistan but then all the sudden he was a terrorist when 9/11 happened.
I hope the people of Israel come to some understanding that peace is better than perpetual war. Even if you have all the military might in the world, can that help you sleep well at night? The best thing is to negotiate for a two country solution and let Palestine govern itself and sustain itself. And let Israel govern how it wishes. However I don’t have high hopes for any of this.
What the middle east needs is a reboot button and reset all these religious hardliners, from the Jewish, Christian to the Islamic. Maybe then someone can make a rational decision.
Comment #51 October 22nd, 2023 at 1:23 pm
@Fred #46:
The definition of proportionality implies that the military goal should be proportionate to the means. So if your goal is to eliminate seniors occupying a building (e.g., Netanyahu), it is not proportionate to nuke the entire city for that purpose alone.
Regarding the Dresden WWII bombing, and similar attacks, it could be considered illegal in modern interpretation, because the goal itself was revenge, there was no military rationale behind the bombing as far as I recall.
In general, if you have any similar reservations and examples, please see my point 3 above. First, ask yourself whether the US, UK and West coalition forces adopted these tactics. If they did, and are even more complicit than Israel in employing these, then it is probably legal.
Comment #52 October 22nd, 2023 at 1:24 pm
Scott #49:
I really hate to disullusion you on this, and I hope you’re actually right.
But the view from here is that it is *far* from certain that this will put an end to Bibi, despite how obviously right that outcome appears. Maybe we’re just jaded from him having gotten away with so many things for so long, and we’re missing the truth. But right now it’s certainly not a given that he’ll be out. And I kind of doubt he’ll bow out gracefully even if he *is* out.
The unity within society is real, but no one knows just how fleeting it will really be, and the issues are still there just beneath the surface.
Comment #53 October 22nd, 2023 at 2:45 pm
The quite ironic thing is: you use the “blood libel” as an insult, when in fact, the bulk of the historical evidence and written testimony of the time suggests that the original stories were true. There are original sources throughout Europe of the tenth – twelfth centuries, as well as in the Caliphates of that period, that Jew elders ritually sacrificed christian and Muslim children for the use of their blood in the sacrifices. It was not common, but it was also not unheard-of. Many contemporary accounts testify to this practice (and again, small number of Jew participated in this, but it was still a singularly Jewish phenomenon). I am in fact studying history at a prestigious university, and this is more or less an open secret among the academics, that the so-called “debunking” of the “blood libel” was shoddy academic work done by Jewish academics.
Comment #54 October 22nd, 2023 at 2:49 pm
“Regarding the Dresden WWII bombing, and similar attacks, it could be considered illegal in modern interpretation, because the goal itself was revenge, there was no military rationale behind the bombing as far as I recall.”
The Dresden bombing had real, legitimate military goals; Dresden was a major logistical hub, as well as harboring plenty of war industries (… and a military base, but the base was not bombed). The bombing would be probably illegal nowadays because of a lack of proportionality: the number of victims was very high (ca. 25 000). The objectives were modest *in comparison* – and also fairly ineffectively pursued (the way the bombing was conducted, it was much better at burning civilians than at destroying bridges).
Comment #55 October 22nd, 2023 at 3:12 pm
Yusuf #53: Again, leaving your comment up so people understand what we’re up against. If that ever happened anywhere — not surprisingly, you’ve given no source and no link, and Wikipedia etc etc all say you’re dead wrong — then it would’ve been in flagrant violation of Jewish law, which famously and explicitly forbids murder, forbids human sacrifice (as dramatized by the Binding of Isaac story), and forbids the consumption of blood.
Comment #56 October 22nd, 2023 at 3:30 pm
Souciance #50
“I wouldn’t keep my hopes on Israel sending that evidence anywhere that is remotely objective. Past records speak for themselves.”
Al Jazeera reports that both French and Canadian intelligence services state that not an Israeli rocket. In addition to electronic intelligence the blast area and damage profile are consistent with munitions used by Arab groups in the area and inconsistent with Israeli munitions. Al Jazeera has modified their claims in response to the video, electronic, and blast characteristics evidence as follows-Okay, it was an Arab rocket shot down onto the hospital by Iron Dome.
Comment #57 October 22nd, 2023 at 3:51 pm
Again, this guy “Yusuf” is most likely not called Yusuf, does not go to a prestigious university, and in fact quite possibly does not believe in what he claims to believe (otherwise he would give sources, name-drop his university, etc.) – he is just a troll trying to work you up.
Comment #58 October 22nd, 2023 at 4:14 pm
Since many of you seem unfamiliar with the laws and practice of war (good!), let me emphasize the point Adam Treat #41 cites.
The principle of proportionality in combat is not between combatants. The US didn’t have to stop the war in the Pacific after Midway or Leyte because we’d sunk as many ships as we’d lost in the initial Japanese attacks. We stopped when the Japanese Empire surrendered unconditionally so that we could dismantle it and prevent its evil from continuing to blight the world.
The principle of proportionality is that an attack’s risk of collateral must be proportional to its potential for military benefit. You shouldn’t drop a big bomb on 1 soldier in a crowd of 100 civilians, but equally 1 civilian in a barracks of 100 soldiers wouldn’t be reason to wave off the attack. When civilians are used as human shields, the obligation to protect them is reduced though not eliminated. The defending military also has an obligation to defend civilians and not to put them in harm’s way.
Militaries don’t have any obligation to fight “fair”. These aren’t sibling squabbles, this is quite literally war. In fact, it is a military’s job to win crushingly. They do have that obligation to try to keep civilians out of the line of fire, but nobody can guarantee that result.
And we’ve seen Israel knock out specific buildings while leaving their neighbors basically intact, such as with the command post built next to the 900 year old church. We’ve seen Israel develop specific technologies to deactivate missiles in flight and to warn civilians of strikes with roof knocking. Other militaries don’t do this, they don’t have those capabilities which understandably reduce lethality.
If you believe Hamas’s claims that in almost two decades Israel has killed a total of ~10k people, well, we’ve all seen the kind of relationship Hamas has with the truth. Israel, for its part, claims that more than 50% of all the Gazans they’ve killed were militants (which even Hamas’s numbers, whose demographics skew young and male, seem consistent with). Other Western militaries have in the past expressed that they could not keep collateral even that low under these conditions.
If you believe those numbers, it took Hamas a day to rack up more than a tenth the civilian casualties that they claim Israel has caused in two decades. That is what two entirely different moral universes look like.
Comment #59 October 22nd, 2023 at 4:56 pm
MK #23: The particulars and modality of how Hamas is to be annihilated in accordance with international law is up to the Israel’s government and defence forces. But the word has an unambiguous meaning when used by the latter, as exemplified by the following exchange involving the US Secretary of Defence:
Comment #60 October 22nd, 2023 at 5:28 pm
@Gerald #57. That’s naïve. Anyone experienced enough in social platforms and discourse on the Israeli-Arab conflict knows well thousands of these types. Clearly, they are organic, ideological and dedicated to the cause, and these views are rampant among the Islamic world, and elsewhere.
Comment #61 October 22nd, 2023 at 5:37 pm
Souciance #50: If you want peace and a “reboot,” then you and I want the same thing! But will you explicitly affirm that you want a peace where a Jewish state and a Palestinian state both exist in the region? If that’s what you want, then as you know, at multiple crucial junctures one side agreed to such a peace, and it was not the Palestinian side. I hope such a peace becomes possible again someday, without being blown up by either side’s extremists.
Comment #62 October 22nd, 2023 at 7:00 pm
Dear Scott and Aharon,
I’m very sorry to hear about this. I hope this family will be released safe and sound. More broadly, I hope that there will be peace in the region within our time. Right now, that seems impossibly distant.
The actions of Hamas cannot be justified in any way. I wish it was redundant to say that.
Comment #63 October 22nd, 2023 at 7:16 pm
This is so upsetting and I don’t want to elaborate in the matter of Israel vs Palestine conundrum, that is complex enough to people that live there for decades.
I’m a brazilian and last week our president/country proposed in the United Nations Security Council a solution to the immediate conflict by creating humanitarian pauses in the Gaza strip and allowing access to it – 12 countries voted in favor of it, but the United States voted against (and it has ‘veto’ power). Why is that? I wonder if USA just want to keep selling weapons and profit in this conflict as it always does. You should really pressure your government.
We are in the XXI century – not only children should not be victims of war, but adults too. A diplomatic solution is required. What Hamas did was horrible, but trying to destroy the Hamas would inflict more collateral damage to a lot of people and … breaking news: it won’t destroy Hamas or it will just give rise to a new Hamas-like group in the future. Is diplomacy so far-fetched for a species capable of doing so much wonderful things?
Comment #64 October 22nd, 2023 at 7:22 pm
Garald #57: Yusuf has submitted additional comments, saying that he studies at Ibn Haldun University in Istanbul, and also taunting me that I probably think the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was fake as well (when he and all his friends know it’s real). Whether troll or sincere, he is banned from this blog, and I suppose I’ll have to make another donation.
(One Israeli friend, who emailed to thank me for this post, joked that he was thinking of sending me a bunch of antisemitic messages to run up my donations. But I really doubt that’s what’s going on here. 🙂 )
Comment #65 October 22nd, 2023 at 8:02 pm
I’m going to preface this comment by wishing for a speedy return of all hostages and a comprehensive smashing of Hamas. I am a Zionist and probably more right-wing than many Israelis commenting here. However, I’m going to play a devils advocate since I don’t want this viewpoint represented only by antisemites.
From this opposite viewpoint, the main legal problem for Israel and her supporters in this comment section is that they want to treat Gaza as an enemy state which has attacked Israel on October 7th and started a war which the Israeli military can prosecute according to the rules of inter-state war, including blockades, sieges, cutting off electricity and water and so on. It is an understandable desire given what happened on October 7th.
However, in the eyes of the international community as represented by the UN, Gaza is part of the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) and as the occupying power Israel bears responsibility for the welfare of civilians living there which means no cutting off of food, electricity and water. There’s an additional complication of the Oslo Accords, according to which part of this responsibility lies on the Palestinian Authority but as the PA is not de facto in power in Gaza, I dont know if it’s considered in abeyance. But even if not, according to the Oslo Accords, Israel is responsible for providing utilities to the OPT.
It seems that according to this legal framework Israel is obligated to approach dismantling Hamas in Gaza in a way that’s closer to how it would approach dismantling a terror network in Tel Aviv than to an inter-state war like WW2.
Comment #66 October 22nd, 2023 at 8:06 pm
Isaac #63: As a U.S. citizen, I do find an explanation of the vote by Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield adequate enough under the circumstances:
https://usun.usmission.gov/explanation-of-vote-by-ambassador-linda-thomas-greenfield-on-a-un-security-council-resolution-drafted-by-brazil-on-the-situation-in-the-middle-east/
Comment #67 October 22nd, 2023 at 9:39 pm
#65AI: This terribly subtle issue appears to be exhaustively enough addressed e.g. in the following document:
https://www.gov.il/en/departments/general/the-operation-in-gaza-factual-and-legal-aspects
Comment #68 October 22nd, 2023 at 10:14 pm
Dear Dr. Aaronson,
I hope this message finds you well. My heart is unequivocally with the families waiting to be reunited.
In my initial comment on your blog regarding this issue, I said, “I believe our political beliefs should not come between us in spaces of solidarity and close our hearts to each other’s pain.” I pointed out that a commenter made an unfortunate remark in this regard. Echoing what several others expressed before me, I am increasingly saddened by what I perceive as a one-sidedness in your language. It feels, to me, like an intentional effort to understand the impressions my generation holds is absent. I want to believe that this conflict is our shared pain. While I can’t begin to grasp the depth of your anger, I had expected you might use your platform differently. My concerns aren’t necessarily with the content of your arguments, but I perceive an alignment with a political stance I hadn’t anticipated from you. Perhaps you’re exasperated with one-sided arguments and actions from pro-Palestine intellectual circles. Maybe we should indeed invest more in understanding the Israeli identity and truth. However, statements like “Anyone incapable of making elementary moral distinctions like that one disqualifies themselves from the conversation” don’t seem to bring us closer together. My thinking is not aligned with the commenter that you were talking to, I do not believe you are responsible for being two-sided in your grief or concerns. However, it is somewhat aligned with Robby Dixon’s: If you are not necessarily looking to be in a conversation with viewpoints that you do not agree with, I’ll also refrain from posting here again. I would rather not risk putting myself in a position where I am announced disqualified from the conversation. As human rights are put into place for the times we feel most justified to commit crimes against them, conversation is most valuable when parties feel their corresponding viewpoint should be disqualified from it.
Best regards,
Mert Gokduman
Comment #69 October 23rd, 2023 at 12:08 am
AI #65
I was going to point out that the Oslo Accords have been continuously violated (by both sides) practically from the moment of their signing, but on reflection, I think the best response to this type of arguement is “yawn”.
Comment #70 October 23rd, 2023 at 12:47 am
AG #67: that document sets out the Israeli view that Gaza has not been occupied since the Israeli withdrawal in 2005 and that Hamas attacks on Israel trigger the self-defense clause of the UN Charter.
Unfortunately, Israel has been unable to convince the international community of its view. In the UN documents Gaza is still considered part of the Occupied Palestinian Territory, for example:
https://www.unocha.org/occupied-palestinian-territory
Furthermore, the International Court of Justice in its ruling on the Israel-built West Bank barrier (which deemed the barrier illegal) said that terrorist attacks on Israel do not qualify as an armed attack under the UN Charter. Therefore, Israel has to treat them as criminal acts and has no more right to level Gaza neighborhoods in order to root out Hamas terrorists than the UK had a right to level Catholic neighborhoods of Belfast in order to root out IRA terrorists.
Again, I do not share this view (my view is that territories are disputed, not occupied, as there was never a Palestinian state) but it is the view of the UN (or Um-Shmum as Israelis call it). Thus, Israel poses a thorny issue for defenders of the rules-based international order (and this is even before we get to the outright annexations by Israel of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights).
Comment #71 October 23rd, 2023 at 2:01 am
I’m in disbelief that anybody would consider Ibn Khaldun University in Istanbul to be a “prestigious university”; according to its own website, it is the 145th best university in Turkey.
Comment #72 October 23rd, 2023 at 3:17 am
Scott Says:
“Comment #61 October 22nd, 2023 at 5:37 pm
Souciance #50: If you want peace and a “reboot,” then you and I want the same thing! But will you explicitly affirm that you want a peace where a Jewish state and a Palestinian state both exist in the region? If that’s what you want, then as you know, at multiple crucial junctures one side agreed to such a peace, and it was not the Palestinian side. I hope such a peace becomes possible again someday, without being blown up by either side’s extremists.”
As you are well aware peace is subjective and depends on terms and negotiations. At one point it looked like it was possible but then a settler killed Yitzak Rabin and Israel turned even more right wing then it was back then and basically decided it didn’t really want peace but slowly remove Palestinians from their land.
More settlements grew after that event then ever before. More settlers killed Palestinians after that event without any scrutiny than ever more. Water supplies drained, land grab and much more. On the Palestinian side, the close relationship with Iran didn’t help their cause, they are being used as a pawn by the Iranians to have some leverage in the middle east.
For their to be any lasting peace, it needs to be terms that see each other as equals. I am not particularly optimistic about it. Even if Netanyahu is removed, who are the rest in line? Most are courting the right wing settler parties.
I hope there exist a state in the future which is neither Jewish, Islamic or whatever else but a state that enforces equal rights for everyone regardless of their religion (or not). For example I find it strange that military service is mandatory in Israel, except if you go and become a religious student, then you are exempt. Why? That’s how it is in countries like Iran..
Comment #73 October 23rd, 2023 at 4:28 am
Actually, food, water, and fuel are ALL being provided to Gaza.
Water: https://www.axios.com/2023/10/15/israel-resumes-water-supply-to-southern-gaza-after-us-pressure
Food: https://www.scmp.com/news/world/middle-east/article/3238753/israel-gaza-war-aid-trucks-enter-gaza-egypts-rafah-crossing … anyway, they have adequate food, there is no famine
Fuel: https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-hamas-war-first-fuel-trucks-war-torn-gaza-through-rafah-border-from-egypt-4504983
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/unrwa-claims-fuel-trucks-enter-gaza-israel-denies-any-fuel-has-entered-strip/
More links about the situation: https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-768005
This one is very good, it turns out that some 25% of Gaza’s electricity things Israel cannot cut off, and of course Israel knows that: https://besacenter.org/cutting-the-electricity-supply-to-gaza-consequences-and-implications/
By the way, the beheaded babies is actually true as it turns out. https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/ https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-769339 https://archive.ph/dhJhL
Don’t trust the Western media, they are hugely unreliable on this issue and parrot Hamas propaganda.
By the way https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-minister-after-unrwa-accuses-hamas-of-theft-gaza-should-get-no-aid-until-hamas-is-gone/ this is awful.
Comment #74 October 23rd, 2023 at 6:34 am
Al #65:
Thank your for your comment. While I’m not sure what I think of this yet, it did give me pause to think a bit and I went to look up some of the stuff. It certainly seems like the UN at least considers Israel an occupying power, and your characterization appears correct (in terms of treating it like breaking up a terror cell within Tel Aviv vs. a hostile nation).
I’m not sure in practice how much to place on this argument. After all, when Israel tells the people in Gaza to leave, many refuse, citing it as an example of ethnic cleansing. If terrorists had taken over Tel Aviv and the government told people to leave, they would. In fact, Israel has evacuated many Israelis from the border with Gaza, and from the North. Clearly, Gaza in many ways *in practice* can’t actually be treated like just another part of Israel.
How this “in practice” fits together with the “in theory” of international law – I have no idea. (In any case I draw my moral ideas of what should happen based on my own morality, not from international law.)
In any case, thanks for the thought-provoking comment.
Comment #75 October 23rd, 2023 at 6:59 am
Just posting to reiterate the points I made in last post:
I mentioned that as a Muslim who follows the conflict for much of my adult life, ie, 25 years, I do not see blind Jew-hatred among my friends, families or communities. I’m not saying that I can extrapolate this to 1.800.000.000 people, (but that would be a bit too idealistic anyway, right?), but I have a good sample still to make a point.
Here, the trend has been positive, in line with slow normalization of relations between Israel and some other countries.
1) Those posting as Muslims, calling names to Jews or glorifying violence against civilians are likely to be trolls, with the intend of maligning Muslims. I can’t prove that, but that has been my experience.
2) There is indeed a reluctance to openly sympathize with Israel from general Muslim public because of the equation made during the past few years to decades (Israel={Netanyahu, settler violence, occupiers, Al aqsa trouble makers}). I think we must be criticising actions of Hamas and Israel without having to demonise or dehumanize the population.
3) There is also a very legitimate grievance that western media and politicians from left to right (except far left liberals) would like to believe that the whole chain of events started only 2 weeks ago.
I’d like to add there that while we must be unequivocally condemning the events on october 7th due to nature of attack on civilians, an effort to portray this conflict as coming out of “Jew-hatred” of Arabs or Muslims would be wrong and counter-productive. This is largely coming from anti-Muslim politicians who wanted to marginalize us as fifth columns. I hope that educated Jews (at-least those living outside Israel) will have the clarity of thinking to appreciate that.
4) I do not agree as such your theory that Israel is kind to Palestinian civilians, whether be in west bank or gaza, I just need to look at some of the brutality by settlers. Israel, given that it is a state (compared to stateless Palestinian factions) are mostly forced to play by the “rules” by international community. But it takes quite some pressure to apply this behaviour and even then very partially followed.
As Israel was created as a state based on arguments surrounding tragic historic circumstances such as Holocaust and even based on Biblical arguments, the proportionality will always be imbalanced and the more you deviate from “rules of war”, the less Israel will get support from rest of the world.
Comment #76 October 23rd, 2023 at 7:45 am
Souciance #72: Yes, if Rabin hadn’t been assassinated, there might be peace today. There might also be peace today if Arafat had been a different person, one able to agree to Ehud Barak’s offer at Camp David. Or, of course, if the Arab nations had agreed to partition in 1947 or any of the other times. Yes, Ben-Gurion should never have agreed to exempt yeshiva students from military service, given how the Orthodox then drove a truck through a pinhole-sized exemption. I constantly wish I could go back and change history.
But to wish for a “secular state for all inhabitants” is to wish for a utopian future in which Jews are no longer at constant risk of a second Holocaust—despite the dramatic reminder two weeks ago that Jews are at constant risk of a second Holocaust, with only the military power of Israel and its allies preventing it. As long as that remains the case, the dismantling of Israel is not an option on the table. The choice is between the current quagmire and progress toward a Jewish and Palestinian state existing peacefully side by side. I’m in the left-wing, optimistic camp, the one that supports the latter.
Comment #77 October 23rd, 2023 at 8:21 am
As for the fear of “second Holocaust”, aren’t Palestinians currently much closer to being eradicated from the face of the planet than Jews?
Comment #78 October 23rd, 2023 at 9:04 am
What makes you think that if Rabin was assassinated, that there would have been peace? Peter Singer makes the same fallacy: https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/israel-hamas-spiral-of-violence-by-peter-singer-2023-10?barrier=accesspaylog
Rabin was on track to lose to Netanyahu. Oslo was unpopular. It is because of the “martyrdom effect” that Peres almost beat Netanyahu. Rabin’s assassination was *good* for the peace process.
Political assassinations generally backfire. Ehud Barak beat Netanyahu handily a few years later and accepted the Clinton Parameters. Arafat didn’t accept them and launched the Second Intifada.
Even if Rabin survived the assassination, maintained a 100% approval rating, won 100% of the Knesset vote with 120 Knesset seats for the rest of time, and got every single settler to return to Green Line Israel, there would be no peace. The simple fact is that (a critical proportion of) the Palestinians do not accept Israel’s existence. It’s not the occupation: https://quillette.com/2023/10/21/its-not-the-occupation/
Scott, be realistic. I’m a big fan of Rabin. But this is just the “martyrdom effect”. Everyone loves dead people.
Comment #79 October 23rd, 2023 at 9:27 am
[Comment removed for hateful/offensive language –SA]
Comment #80 October 23rd, 2023 at 9:31 am
Scott Says:
“Comment #75 October 23rd, 2023 at 7:45 am
Souciance #72: Yes, if Rabin hadn’t been assassinated, there might be peace today. There might also be peace today if Arafat had been a different person, one able to agree to Ehud Barak’s offer at Camp David. Or, of course, if the Arab nations had agreed to partition in 1947 or any of the other times. Yes, Ben-Gurion should never have agreed to exempt yeshiva students from military service, given how the Orthodox then drove a truck through a pinhole-sized exemption. I constantly wish I could go back and change history.
But to wish for a “secular state for all inhabitants” is to wish for a utopian future in which Jews are no longer at constant risk of a second Holocaust—despite the dramatic reminder two weeks ago that Jews are at constant risk of a second Holocaust, with only the military power of Israel and its allies preventing it. As long as that remains the case, the dismantling of Israel is not an option on the table. The choice is between the current quagmire and progress toward a Jewish and Palestinian state existing peacefully side by side. I’m in the left-wing, optimistic camp, the one that supports the latter.”
Except the chances for a second holocaust are minute. You basically possess the strongest army in the middle east and without actually admitting it have nuclear power and have pretty much most of the western world on your side. Even Iran is not actually after the destruction of Israel in the same way as Hitler was. They even negotiated with the Israelis and Americans in the Iran contra affair. Things were a bit different back in 1939. Even now, the number of civilians killed is magnitudes higher on the other side.
The problem though is that the resolution with the current state is not easy task. Essentially many things would need to change. Settlement growth would have to stop and revert back to the borders internationally recognized. Will that happen? Sure, if a leftwing government came to power maybe but will that actually happen? Considering most of the arab states want to negotiate with Israel, who actually wants to support Palestinians? The PLO has no real power and proxy militias like Hamas have no support among the people so you are left with a power vacuum.
I agree that the concept of a Israel and Palestine is the preferred option considering where we are, but I think there needs so many changes that it is unlikely it will happen in my lifetime and I am not that old 😉
Comment #81 October 23rd, 2023 at 9:33 am
MK #76: That’s a lie. The Palestinian population has been rapidly increasing, and even today, with the most far-right government in Israel’s history, expulsion (let alone eradication) is totally outside the Overton Window. By contrast, the world was dramatically reminded over the past two weeks that there’s a constituency of hundreds of millions who thirst for a second Holocaust and cheer any sign of one, and that only the strength of the IDF prevents it.
This knowledge is hardly abstract for me: every day, I encounter more representatives of the pro-Jew-killing contingent in my inbox and right here in this comment section.
Comment #82 October 23rd, 2023 at 9:54 am
Mert #68: It would be hard to overstate the degree to which Jews around the world, even liberal ones, were traumatized and radicalized two weeks ago—not merely by the worst slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust, but even more than that, by the crowds that then quickly turned out in cities and universities around the world to cheer the slaughter and defend the slaughterers. Crucially, this happened before Israel had started to defend itself—indeed, it happened while the slaughter was still underway. And then institutional leaders in the US, with the dramatic exception of President Biden, responded with equivocation, barely able to bring themselves to condemn Hamas.
So it’s like this: questions about the proportionality and strategy of Israel’s response, the geopolitical context, the future of Gaza, the responsibility of the Israeli government, etc are important and interesting. There are two sides to all of those questions. But before those questions can even be entered into, there are prerequisite questions:
Was Hitler right?
Should Jews be suffered to exist on this planet?
Should the State of Israel continue to exist, as the ultimate guarantor of Jewish survival?
These questions, as we now know, are “two-sided” at Harvard and Columbia and in Poland and Turkey and London, but I have no option but to regard them as one-sided. Or rather: there’s the “side” that will let me live, and then the “side” from which I need to be defended. And I can only have meaningful debates with people on the first side.
Comment #83 October 23rd, 2023 at 10:05 am
A few points:
Regarding the Hospital strike, the thing is that, when it was announced, I’ve seen evidence that social media linked to the IDF had the knee jerk reaction to post that this was a fair target because Hamas combatants had (probably) been hiding in it. Those posts were later deleted, etc.
This is not to say that the IDF was responsible for that specific strike, but that hitting a hospital is still seen by the IDF (or its spoke people) as okay as long as Hamas is ‘hiding’ in there.
But we never know what’s the threshold to justify such strikes. I.e. when a building hiding N Hamas operatives or equipment is hit, with X amount of collateral civilian casualties, what’s the acceptable ratio N/X? Does the IDF have some lower bound here? It doesn’t look like it. I’ve also heard that many of those strikes have a retaliatory nature, i.e. they learn where a Hamas member lives, and then they take down the entire building in order to wipe out his family (obviously Hamas members don’t just appear magically, they all grew up as Palestinians, with parents, siblings, wive, children, etc).
So, if 4,000 Palestinians have been killed so far, what portion of this was “Hamas”?
4,000 is 0.2% of the Gaza population. In the scale of the US that would be 700,000 deaths.
If Hamas is 25,000 members (i.e. 1.25% of the population), and if the IDF strikes were “blind”, then it means that out of those 4,000 casualties, only 50 would be Hamas (just as a reference)… Hopefully the IDF intel is better than that, but I’m also quite puzzled/skeptical of how the IDF would even gather the intel necessary to assess all this (i.e. find targets, assess collateral damage, assess effectiveness of strike), especially given how appallingly bad their intel has been in the months leading to the Hamas attack that started it all.
The people in northern Gaza have been warned to evacuate to the South (past a certain line), but, since then, there’s still a huge amount of strikes in the South, killing many of those who had complied and moved South. What’s the idea here? That doesn’t seem right at all.
Lastly, there’s the question as to whether Israel can even “wipe out” Hamas. I understand there’s a demand from the country to act strongly. But there has to be a political plan. I’m highly skeptical that “Bibi” and his side have the interest or ability to progress the question politically. How soon can “Bibi” be replaced through elections?
Comment #84 October 23rd, 2023 at 10:12 am
Scott #78:
“hundreds of millions who thirst for a second Holocaust ” – hundreds of millions? Like, 10% of world population thirsts for a second Holocaust? Any citation for that? Consider the possibility that “your inbox and this comment section” MIGHT not be an unbiased sample of world population. You see mostly trolls and idiots.
Regarding the Overton Window, somehow expulsion/eradication of Palestinian is outside the window, but bombing Gaza is well, well inside. I’m not sure if this bodes well for the physical survival of the Palestinian nation. Israel’s chance of survival is much, much bigger – and yes, I agree, this is thanks to the military might of the IDF and the US army + nuclear weapons. “Hundreds of millions thirsting for a 2nd Holocaust” or not, Israel will do just fine. Not sure about Palestine…
BTW, it’s worth looking at Josh Paul’s (a senior US diplomat) resignation over Biden’s support for Israel: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/19/state-department-official-resigns-over-bidens-handling-of-israel-gaza-war This is no Jew hater.
Comment #85 October 23rd, 2023 at 10:15 am
Scott #80: “These questions, as we now know, are “two-sided” at Harvard and Columbia and in Poland and Turkey and London, but I have no option but to regard them as one-sided. Or rather: there’s the “side” that will let me live, and then the “side” from which I need to be defended. And I can only have meaningful debates with people on the first side.”
Where in Poland? This is just a lie. (I can only think of one person from a pro-Palestinian [but not anti-Jewish] demonstration in Warsaw who carried an antisemitic sign – this person was Norwegian, not Polish, and will face charges)
Comment #86 October 23rd, 2023 at 11:41 am
Just posting to reiterate the points I made in last post:
I mentioned that as a Muslim who follows the conflict for much of my adult life, ie, 25 years, I do not see blind Jew-hatred among my friends, families or communities. I’m not saying that I can extrapolate this to 1.800.000.000 people, (but that would be a bit too idealistic anyway, right?), but I have a good sample still to make a point.
Here, the trend has been positive, in line with slow normalization of relations between Israel and some other countries.
1) Those posting as Muslims, calling names to Jews or glorifying violence against civilians are likely to be trolls, with the intend of maligning Muslims. I can’t prove that, but that has been my experience.
2) There is indeed a reluctance to openly sympathize with Israel from general Muslim public because of the equation made during the past few years to decades (Israel={Netanyahu, settler violence, occupiers, Al aqsa trouble makers}). I think we must be criticising actions of Hamas and Israel without having to demonise or dehumanize the population.
3) There is also a very legitimate grievance that western media and politicians from left to right (except far left liberals) would like to believe that the whole chain of events started only 2 weeks ago.
I’d like to add there that while we must be unequivocally condemning the events on october 7th due to nature of attack on civilians, an effort to portray this conflict as coming out of “Jew-hatred” of Arabs or Muslims would be wrong and counter-productive. This is largely coming from anti-Muslim politicians who wanted to marginalize us as fifth columns. I hope that educated Jews (at-least those living outside Israel) will have the clarity of thinking to appreciate that.
4) I do not agree as such your theory that Israel is kind to Palestinian civilians, whether be in west bank or gaza, I just need to look at some of the brutality by settlers. Israel, given that it is a state (compared to stateless Palestinian factions) are mostly forced to play by the “rules” by international community. But it takes quite some pressure to apply this behaviour and even then very partially followed.
As Israel was created as a state based on arguments surrounding tragic historic circumstances such as Holocaust and even based on Biblical arguments, the proportionality will always be imbalanced and the more you deviate from “rules of war”, the less Israel will get support from rest of the world.
Comment #87 October 23rd, 2023 at 12:25 pm
No Second Holocaust #78
Many Jewish people lie at the high end of the distribution for positive characteristics (like intelligence) that have monetary value in Western society. Any ideology, or political system, that manipulates envy and /or pursues equality of results generates anti-semitism like water flows down to the sea.
Comment #88 October 23rd, 2023 at 1:42 pm
Zen (Muslim) #85: Thanks!! As I like to say, if people like you were in charge of the Palestinian side, I believe there could be peace within a week.
A small correction, though: I never once claimed that Israel has been “kind” to Palestinian civilians. Some Israelis have (just like some Palestinians have been kind to Israelis), but given the tragic reality of the two peoples at each other’s throats for a century, “kindness” would be a lot to ask from either.
I make only the weaker claim that Israel has, on the whole, sought coexistence with the Palestinians rather than their exile or extermination, and that the same is not true of Hamas or any Palestinian who supports Hamas. This is proven by Israel’s acceptance of partition plans in 1947, 2000, and many other times (plans that the other side rejected), and of course by the fact that Israel has not exiled or exterminated the Palestinians despite its overwhelming military advantage for generations.
Comment #89 October 23rd, 2023 at 1:59 pm
MK #83, #84: If you look up the percentages of people in the Muslim world who believe the classical antisemitic tropes (Jews control the world, blood libels, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc), it’s severely depressing, and leads to the guess that “hundreds of millions” who thirst for a second Holocaust is probably a conservative underestimate. Even here in the US, one of the least antisemitic places where Jews have ever lived in large numbers, about 10% seem to hold beliefs about Jews that would justify a second Holocaust, even if they won’t complete the modus ponens when on the phone with a pollster.
As for your country of Poland — not only did it very enthusiastically aid the first Holocaust (the Poles living near Auschwitz complained about the smell, not about the mass murder), successfully liquidating 90% of the 3 million Jews who existed in Poland in 1939, it’s never even accepted historical responsibility for the crime like Germany has. On the contrary, Poland recently made it a crime to talk about the Polish complicity in the Holocaust that’s accepted by all mainstream historians — not the sort of thing a country does that knows itself to be innocent.
Some of my great-grandparents, and my wife’s grandmother, were among the small fraction of Polish Jews who escaped your people’s bloodlust in time. You are in no position to lecture me, and if you do, I will ban you.
Comment #90 October 23rd, 2023 at 2:18 pm
Scott #8,
You needn’t answer or even let through this comment if you are not comfortable answering it. I am asking this only because the poll results were a bit unexpected.
These people aged 18-24 who have polled in favor of Hamas – what is it about their ethnicity, in general? Are they middle easterners? I am asking this because if that were so then it would have been understandable (i.e., the poll results). From the videos I could not make it out clearly, but they did not seem to be so at least overwhelmingly. I am not unsurprised by the results of the older groups either – I would have expected less of them to cast votes in “favor” of Hamas. But since the 18-24 age group is more vocal and you interact much with that demographic I was thinking you may have some insights.
I would like to stress that I have no ill will against middle easterners, or against any people for that matter. I am just trying to understand foreign politics better. My apologies to anyone reading this if he or she found this insensitive.
Comment #91 October 23rd, 2023 at 2:39 pm
Scott #88: Antisemitism in Poland AD 2023 is practically non-existent. Any politician, even very right wing, who would try to use this card would instantly lose any respectability. Things were _very_ different 80 years ago. Yes, Poland has a long history of antisemitism, but this is a thing of the past (and anyway, is not the only country to have such history). As for “Poland recently made it a crime to talk about the Polish complicity in the Holocaust “, this is right wing BS typical of the current government and was widely condemned in Poland (thank God, we have just voted these guys out of office).
Regarding the claims you make in your first paragraph – can you give some data, citations, anything? The claim that “<> who thirst for a second Holocaust is probably a conservative underestimate” sound so, so, so preposterous to me that I’d really like to read something to back it up. I’m not claiming you’re wrong, it’s just so strongly against my prior for this that I’d like to update in your direction, if possible.
IMHO much more people would like to see a “Holocaust on Muslims” – but I have no data on this. In any Western country, if there’s a ethnic group likely to be dehumanized, it would be Arabs, not Jews (again, at least in my country, but I imagine elsewhere is different).
Comment #92 October 23rd, 2023 at 2:53 pm
I think Scott was wrong about inclusion of Poland in that statement about the protests, but who cares? His general point stands.
think what Scott says about Poland is unfair though: “As for your country of Poland … not the sort of thing a country does that knows itself to be innocent.” I am no fan of the Polish government that got voted out (thanks Tusk) but it’s important to understand the context here. 10% of non-Jewish Poles were killed in the Holocaust. Some Poles collaborated, more than the shitty Polish government (good riddance, go Tusk!) wants to admit, and it’s awful that they are trying to stifle free speech on it. Yes some Poles were pro-Nazi. But some were anti-Nazi and hid Jews. They had more righteous against the nations than anyone else. They lost 10% of their population. You can understand why they might be sensitive about this even they might not agree. And you can understand why some Poles collaborated with Nazis, who hated Slavs but at least hated Jews more. It was dangerous to resist the Nazis.
Imagine a crazy and unrealistic thought experiment. Say a Nazi China invaded the US, killed 10% of its people, and then committed a genocide against Jews or black people, and say 1% or 5% of the white population actively collaborated with them. Would it be appropriate to then hate America, if right afterward America became a woke/socialist country that was a satellite state of a tyrannical Soviet Soros-ist communist European Union for 50 years that stamped out all signs of American patriotism. Say Jews were 20% of the leadership in this European Union, just as they were overrepresented in the leadership of all of the movements, or maybe Jews supported this a bit more because the far-right in Europe didn’t like them. Say then a right-wing/classical liberal revolution led to the removal of woke communism (and the woke communists took endless credit for ending the war and kept saying over and over that American nationalists collaborated with China and that American nationalism was evil because it led to genocide), and then 30 years after that the government was sensitive and didn’t want to admit this because China also killed 10% of all white Americans, and it had some bad if understandable grievances about the Jews? Would it right to call the death camps “American death camps”? Would it be good to hate America because a Republican President wouldn’t take responsibility? Would it be right to ignore the huge number of White Americans that tried to save the Jews? Would it be right to say “oh China admitted its responsibility but America didn’t, bad bad China” because China got partitioned between the communist European Union (who ruled a bit in the northeast, including the area around Beijing and half of Beijing) and India (who ran most of the country, and is the leader of the free world in this scenario)?
MK #24: There are also no Egyptian or Jordanian complexity theorists (Egypt and Jordan are poor but they have peace with Israel), or complexity theorists from the Gulf. Countries like Qatar, Kuwait, UAE, Saudi Arabia etc don’t have much of this. I wonder why? Israel has more 21st century Nobel Prize winners per capita than any other country and crazy levels of scientific achievement. I wonder why? I also wonder why Jews were a majority of Polish chess champions in the interwar period. Because they were rich? Jewish Americans were poor when they immigrated but are now the richest people.
Scott, why was there anti-Semitism in Poland? Why do you blame the Poles personally when in every country in the world people hate overachieving groups and try to kill them? Tutsis in Rwanda as well. How can you support the Democratic Party which pushes progressive taxes and wokeness and affirmative action (to which you have “ironclad support”), and then criticize Poland for its affirmative action policies against Jews?
“If people are assumed to start out identical but some end up wealthier than others, observers may conclude that the wealthier ones must be more rapacious. And as the diagnosis slides from talent to sin, the remedy can shift from redistribution to vengeance. Many atrocities of the 20th century were committed in the name of egalitarianism, targeting people whose success is taken as evidence of their criminality. The kulaks (“Bourgeois peasants”) were exterminated by Lenin and Stalin in the Soviet union; teachers, former landlords, and “rich peasants” were humiliated, tortured, and murdered during the Chinese cultural revolution; city dwellers and literate professionals were worked to death or executed during the reign of the Khmer rouge in Cambodia. Educated and entrepreneurial minorities who have prospered in their adopted regions, such as the Indians in East Africa and Oceania, the Ibos in Nigeria, the Armenians in Turkey, the Chinese in Indonesia and Malaysia, and the Jews almost everywhere, have been expelled from their homes or killed in Pogroms because their visibly successful members were seen as parasites and exploiters.”
– Steven Pinker, The Blank Slate
Look, I think that if we have free speech on the genocide of Jews, we should also be allowed to have free speech on other topics. After all, the consequences of banning this speech can be genocidal. The Blank Slate should be taught in our universities to everyone. We need to people understand the real reasons there are not that many Palestinian scientists. Oil-rich Arab countries don’t have much either.
Comment #93 October 23rd, 2023 at 3:04 pm
Scott #88
“the Poles living near Auschwitz complained about the smell, not about the mass murder”
Anyone living in one of NYC five boroughs following 9/11 will confirm that the smell of thousands of corpses burning for months in the smoldering pile of rubble was indeed horrible, especially when the wind was blowing in the ‘wrong’ direction. It’s something all New Yorkers had to endure, and it’s a smell I’ll never forget and I’m getting nauseous just thinking about it.
Comment #94 October 23rd, 2023 at 3:19 pm
Scott #64:
Yusuf is a student at Ibn Khaldun University in Turkey.And these universities are private, fee-paying institutions. In Turkey, the “prestigious” universities are state-owned and entirely free. To gain admission to these universities, one needs to be among the top 750 out of 3.5 million students. Only 250,000 students score low enough to potentially enroll in fee-paying schools. Yusuf’s school (history department) costs 150,000 Turkish Liras annually, which is equivalent to 13 times the minimum wage (monthly) excluding rent, transportation, and food.
The “original sources” he references are based on two names in Turkey: Adnan Oktar and Kadir Misirlioglu. Both of them are authors of fiction books created by translating directly into Turkish the fabricated news magazines, which Umberto Eco narrativized in his book “Foucault’s Pendulum.” These books translate the fictional stories of the time first into Ottoman Turkish and then the made-up news from the Ottoman era into Turkish, creating the perception that they are based on documents and sources.
Adnan Oktar became a billionaire in Turkey by spreading these false stories about Judaism and Freemasonry through his books, with the support of conservative governments of the time. He became so wealthy that he established his own TV channel and declared himself a semi-messiah, conducting shows with semi-nude women (whom he called “kittens”). He gathered a wealthy following around him, reminiscent of figures like Osho. Adnan Oktar and his followers were arrested and imprisoned in Turkey. He has an official government report stating that he is “mentally ill.”
Similarly, Kadir Misirlioglu is an eccentric figure who became a millionaire through books filled with fictional news based on ultra-Islamic, nationalist, and heavily anti-Semitic. He is only recognized as a reference by the Islamic fascist circles in Turkey. Like Adnan Oktar, Misirlioglu has been deemed mentally ill and deprived of criminal capacity.
Comment #95 October 23rd, 2023 at 3:52 pm
MK
“IMHO much more people would like to see a “Holocaust on Muslims” – but I have no data on this. In any Western country, if there’s a ethnic group likely to be dehumanized, it would be Arabs, not Jews “
Point in case, in France, the far-right RN (National Rally), headed by Marine Le Pen, former FN (Front National), has been vocally supporting Jews and Israel and condemning Hamas… many were “surprised” by this because the FN was run by openly anti-Semitic people, like Jean-Marie Le Pen, who called the Holocaust a “detail” of WW2 and made puns about the concentration camps. For years Marine Le Pen has made a point to distance herself from her father, whether she’s genuine, no-one knows (she realized that she needs a certain level of respectability to get a chance to ever be elected President), and her focus has been on Islam – it’s a result of the fact that Europe has had a massive Muslim immigration for decades. It is claimed that 4-10% of the French population is now Muslim, and all the issues about integration and compatibility with the values of the Republic keep coming up again and again at the forefront of the public debate (especially each time a French teacher gets murdered/decapitated by an Islamist, like it happened a week ago and a year ago), and the ones now accused of antisemitism are the far-left, with someone like Melanchon (leader of the “France Insoumise”, which successfully united all the left in recent elections) having refused to condemn the Hamas attacks, putting all the responsibility of Israel. It is said that the far-left sees the French/Arab youth as the new proletaria, a new source of votes which could finally bring them to power.
As always, there’s certainly a strong dose of demagogy and populism on both “far” sides.
Comment #96 October 23rd, 2023 at 4:17 pm
Rahul #15, your example fails to incorporate future expectations. Suppose that the hypothetical murderer has announced intention to kill several million others, and has demonstrated that they have the skills and resources necessary to do so? I agree that the current response is likely to end up exceeding what is reasonable given only the past, but I think there is a lot of room to justify more extreme measures given a perspective on the (admittedly fuzzy) future.
Mitchell #16 so Guterrres’ proposal is a return to the status quo, with no consequences for the atrocity committed by Hamas. Ignoring the question of justice, this will demonstrate to Hamas that they should go ahead and plan the next atrocity with expectation of the same outcome.
Scott #20 I assume that argument is that cutting off water to Hamas makes them a less effective fighting force, and that the consequences for millions of civilians are just another kind of “collateral damage”.
MK #23 Agreed; Hamas will *never* be annihilated because after this atrocity every terrorist will jump to claim the label “Hamas” in order to share in the reflected “glory”
Rahul #26 I think the best analogy is probably ISIS, whose successful destruction involved razing the city of Mosul which contained hundreds of thousands of inhabitants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mosul_(2016%E2%80%932017) I don’t remember loud protests on their behalf either.
Souciance #27 I agree that Hamas was supported by misguided Israeli policies but I don’t think that absolves them for responsibility for their choices. Yes, Israel arranged for tons of money to go to Hamas, but it was Hamas that decided to spend that money funding weapons instead of businesses. I also think that responsibility is a secondary consideration here; when the house is on fire you don’t ask why, you just fight the fire.
Souciance #28 I’m not sure why you are blaming Israel for hiding evidence about the hospital bombing when it is Hamas that controls the territory where that evidence could be gathered. For some reason all traces of the weapon that did the damage have “melted away like salt” according to Hamas. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/22/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-hospital-evidence.html
Scott #30 I agree that having the PA run Gaza would be nice, but the fact that its rule is being imposed by Israel would presumably make it a non-starter. I’m slightly more optimistic (though still very pessimistic) about the feasibility of an Arab peacekeeping force (from egypt/saudi/jordan).
WA #33 For many years I have believed that the right way to resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict would be to set up a large stadium and allow anyone from either side who cares enough to enter the stadium and kill people who disagree with them. No weapons allowed since the fight should be “fair”. If we ever run out of people willing to fight then the problem is resolved. But absent that solution, it seems we are faced with a dichotomy: when Hamas fires missiles from a kindergarden, should Israel bomb the kindergarden or not? I see both answers as tragic, but I don’t see how to avoid a choice.
Theorist #40 I agree with your argument in general but believe you oversimplify it. Yes, proportionate force is permitted. But there is a lot of room to disagree over how much force is proportionate. If a terrorist is throwing rocks from a building with 1000 civilians, destroying the building is probably disproportionate. If thet are launching missiles, perhaps the answer is different. I also agree with you that Israel has never, as a matter of policy, targeted civilians. But I wish they would be more quick to acknowledge mistakes that lead to avoidable harm, as I think it would make them more credible.
OhMyGoodness #42 https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2023/10/16/jerusalem-cardinal-pizzaballa-offer-hostage-exchange-246305
Souciance #50 “I hope the people of Israel come to some understanding that peace is better than perpetual war.” Note that this was by far the majority opinion in the 2000s (until it flipped after a wave of suicide bombings) and it is still the opinion of a *large* minority of Israelis. Who may take back power with the disgrace of Netanyahu.
AI #70 This is one of many reasons I have long advocated for Israel to recognize a Palestinian state—in order to remove the argument that Gaza is occupied.
MK #76 According to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, “The Palestinian population was 1.37 million in 1948, but by the end of 2012 the estimated world population of Palestinians totaled 11.6 million.” There are also 2M in Gaza alone. So no, I don’t think they are being wiped out.
fred #82 your math makes no sense. it assumes that Israel is choosing Gazans to kill at random. Since Israel is targeting Hamas members, the numbers are very different. Israel claims that roughly half the deaths are among Hamas.
Zen #85 I agree with some of your points, but to your point about Israel being kind to Palestinian civilians, I want to point out that the 2M (ethnic) Palestinians *inside* Israel are reasonably well off, facing American levels of racial discrimination but not the kind of violence being experienced in Gaza. Many of them are vocally supporting Israel in the conflict. And I believe that if the terrorist threat were truly eliminated, then Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza would experience much the same treatment.
Comment #97 October 23rd, 2023 at 4:40 pm
Scott I have followed your work closely and have learned a great deal from you. Thank you for advocating on behalf of the Broduch family and all the hostages. We are working with Hagar’s family in New York City. They spoke at our rally last week. We are pushing every way we can. Thank you for using your platform to speak out. – Mark Levine, Manhattan Borough President
Comment #98 October 23rd, 2023 at 4:45 pm
David Karger
“fred #82 your math makes no sense. it assumes that Israel is choosing Gazans to kill at random. Since Israel is targeting Hamas members, the numbers are very different. Israel claims that roughly half the deaths are among Hamas”
First, I wrote it’s just a *reference*, i.e. if the IFD were to target randomly, we’d have 50 Hamas killed for 4,000 deaths. I never claim that’s the actual number, I have no idea.
Then, if, as you say, half the deaths are Hamas (sources? or you’re assuming that every Hamas combatant is hiding behind exactly one civilian?), and, since Israel plans to “wipe out Hamas”, i.e. 25,000 members, then we should expect 25,000 civilian casualties (“roughly” 12,500 children killed), for a combined total of 2.5% of the population of Gaza?
Plus maybe “roughly” 10 times the level of injured (a quarter of the population)?
Bonus question – what’s your estimated loss ratio on the IDF side to achieve this?
Comment #99 October 23rd, 2023 at 5:17 pm
>I make only the weaker claim that Israel has, on the whole, sought coexistence with the >Palestinians rather than their exile or extermination, and that the same is not true of Hamas or >any Palestinian who supports Hamas. This is proven by Israel’s acceptance of partition plans in >1947, 2000, and many other times (plans that the other side rejected), and of course by the fact >that Israel has not exiled or exterminated the Palestinians despite its overwhelming military >advantage for generations.
Partly correct (given, what Palestinians call Nakba is a forced expulsion), and in any case, I’m of the opinion that it is hard to generalize that behaviour across entire 75 years. I do not doubt that there have been many Israeli leaders who sought peace and compromise, but it was rather multipolar forces in the international community that enforced some restraints on Israeli side. On the other hand, Palestinian (or Hizbollah) started as non-state actors, so they were not bound by restraint. I’m not saying that that justifies some of their tactics, but this pattern has been the case with many other conflicts where asymmetric warfare is involved. My overall point is that “extermination” in general is not possible just based on hard military power when there is a balance in support to both people (Israel supported by West and Palestine supported by Arabs, USSR and many other countries in what is now called global south including India and China).
Also, let’s not forget that European Jews who settled in Palestine were order of magnitude more advanced politically and economically than local Arabs. Even though Jews as such were persecuted in West, they had the knowhow of nation building in line with the existing world order.
In retrospect, we can count from both sides on lots of what-ifs including missed opportunities, poor leadership, vested interests, religious fundamentalism etc. that contributed to the current misery.
Comment #100 October 23rd, 2023 at 5:26 pm
MK #90: I apologize for losing my temper. Huge congratulations on the election of Tusk and the setback to Poland’s authoritarians. I was angered by what I saw as your brusque dismissal of Jewish fears of extermination, given your own country’s world-historically dark and shameful past in that area, but I indeed have no evidence that modern Poland is any more anti-Israel than any other comparable country.
Comment #101 October 23rd, 2023 at 5:44 pm
fred #82 I flagged your “reference” because it is so misleading. To even suggest such a ratio changes the entire perspective on whether Israel is acting “proportionately”, and I urge against doing that without evidence.
“I’ve also heard that many of those strikes have a retaliatory nature, i.e. they learn where a Hamas member lives, and then they take down the entire building in order to wipe out his family”. Again you are pushing a particular framing. It is true that Israel has killed relatives of Hamas members but this has always been part of killing the Hamas members themselves (or, erroneously thought they were). This raises questions about whether such an attack is “proportionate” but I disagree that this should be described as “retaliation”.
In conversations elsewhere I have written that I expect hundreds of thousands of deaths in Gaza. I do not want this or celebrate it; it is simply my prediction. I also expect tens of thousands of deaths among Israel soldiers. Others tell me I am being pessimistic but I don’t think so.
Comment #102 October 23rd, 2023 at 5:59 pm
To add to the general confusion, we now have brand new definitions for “Nazis”.
– Putin calling Zelensky, who’s Jewish, a Nazi.
– The progressive youth in the US with their “Punch a Nazi!” memes, the term now refers to anyone who dares criticizing a person/group that’s of a ‘browner’ skin shade than they are (e.g. this would cover the treatment of women in Afghanistan).
Of course Jews always get the wrong end of the stick since they’re not white enough for the far-right while simultaneously being too white for the far-left…
Comment #103 October 23rd, 2023 at 6:32 pm
David Krager #95: ” I agree that Hamas was supported by misguided Israeli policies but I don’t think that absolves them for responsibility for their choices. Yes, Israel arranged for tons of money to go to Hamas, but it was Hamas that decided to spend that money funding weapons instead of businesses.”
Yes, true, Hamas is responsible for its actions, but you can’t expect to give money to a group that was obviously an extremist from the beginning (like the story of CIA funding extremists in Afghanistan), and then as a result get Gaza commercialized like Las Vegas or have the next Gandhi coming out of that group. They spent that money exactly as you’d expect them, and the Israel government knew about it and that’s exactly why they did it, as a counter to PLO!
This beast was helped and fed by stupid Israeli politicians (including the current man in charge) for 20 years, and the next 20 years Israel has been trying to kill it.
I do hope, like Scott said, that all those politicians will get dumped asap… Although… the fact that they have been voted in for the past 20 years is a very discouraging sign.
Comment #104 October 23rd, 2023 at 9:28 pm
AI #70: Paragraph 29 of the document referenced in comment #67 reads:
“29. Generally, international law recognises two kinds of armed conflicts: ―international armed conflict and ―non-international armed conflict. (The law of international armed conflicts has traditionally been used for fighting across borders between sovereign States, while the law of non-international armed conflicts has traditionally been applied within the boundaries of a State, such as civil wars or insurgencies.) Each has its own rules, although many of the basic provisions are common to both. It is not yet settled which regime applies to cross-border military confrontations between a sovereign State and a non-State terrorist armed group operating from a separate territory. ”
Has the issue raised in the last sentence been settled?
In any case, the next paragraph, 30, appears to make this issue moot:
“30. In this case, the Gaza Strip is neither a State nor a territory occupied or controlled by Israel.
\footnote{The High Court of Justice recognized last year that ―since September 2005 Israel no longer has effective control over what happens in the Gaza Strip,‖ and thus no longer can be considered an ―occupying power‖ under international law. Jaber Al-Bassiouni v. The Prime Minister of Israel, HCJ 9132/07 at ¶ 12 (30 January 2008), available at http://elyon1.court.gov.il/verdictsSearch/EnglishStaticVerdicts.html.} In these sui generis circumstances, Israel as a matter of policy applies to its military operations in Gaza the rules of armed conflict governing both international and non-international armed conflicts. At the end of the day, classification of the armed conflict between Hamas and Israel as international or non-international in the current context is largely of theoretical concern, as many similar norms and principles govern both types of conflicts. ”
If I understand you correctly, the decision by the High Court of Justice referenced in the footnote to the first seentence of Paragraph 30 is disputed by the UN. This, in itself, seems to pertain only to the validity of the first sentence of Paragraph 30 and does not affect the rest of the argumentation put forth: Israel as a matter of policy applies to its military operations in Gaza the rules of armed conflict governing both international and non-international armed conflicts.
Comment #105 October 23rd, 2023 at 9:53 pm
shtetl-fan #102: The idea that Israel created Hamas is a conspiracy theory. For some reason, conspiracists love the trope of “chickens coming home to roost” or “the protagonist sows the seeds of his own destruction” and keep reinventing it. Just as there’s no evidence that the CIA funded Osama bin Laden, there’s no evidence that Israel created Hamas.
Hamas appeared in the early 1980s as an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, a religious and social organization which at the time ran mosques, soup kitchens and social clubs for Muslims in Gaza. It is true that Israel allowed it to operate back then because it did not engage in terrorism and it was thought better that local residents join it than the PLO which while secular became infamous for its terrorist atrocities like the Maalot massacre (hostage-taking of 115 Israeli schoolchildren) and the Coastal Road massacre. There are many similar charity organizations with ties to the Muslim Brotherhood that are still operating around the world like for example CAIR in the US.
Once the First Intifada started in the late 1980s and Hamas began its terrorist attacks, Israel outlawed it and started to fight it by arresting its leaders at first and later eliminating them. When in 2005 Israel withdrew from Gaza, it came under pressure from the Bush administration (then in the grips of its democracy-promotion agenda) to hold elections among the Palestinians. It was widely predicted that the Palestinians in Gaza would vote in the terrorist extremists of Hamas but the Bush administration in the person of Elliott Abrams (of the Iran-Contra fame) pushed ahead anyway. Once Hamas won the elections, they violently took over all the offices of government in Gaza and annihilated all political opponents. They then turned Gaza into a terror base from which they attacked Israel with rockets and attempted to infiltrate via tunnels to perform terror attacks.
Successive Israeli governments were reluctant to reoccupy Gaza and tried to deal with the problem by alternately sticks or carrots: conducting military operations to degrade Hamas capabilities and relaxing restrictions on the transfer of goods into the Strip and allowing Palestinian day workers into Israel from Gaza. Most recently, before the October 7th attacks, Israel had a truce with Hamas, facilitated daily entry of thousands of Palestinian day workers from Gaza and allowed Qatar funds into the Strip that were distributed by Hamas. Again, Israel did not fund Hamas: it allowed Qatari and other Arab funds into Gaza which ended up in Hamas’s coffers. Hamas were supposed to use these funds to govern Gaza and improve the welfare of residents there, Hamas leaders clearly spent it on rockets, tunnels and weapons instead (and embezzled the rest).
Comment #106 October 23rd, 2023 at 9:58 pm
David Karger #100: I agree with your assessment of potential casualties, resulting from a massive ground operation in Gaza. But that such a massive ground operation will in fact take place does not strike me as necessarily a foregone conclusion at this juncture.
Comment #107 October 23rd, 2023 at 10:04 pm
AG #103:
Yes, the document sets out the Israeli point of view, not the view of the international community. The High Court of Justice is an Israeli court, its rulings are not necessarily accepted by the UN. If I understand correctly the sentence you cite, “the rules of armed conflict governing both international and non-international armed conflicts” applied by Israel are by definition a narrower set of rules than those demanded by the UN, as it is the intersection of the rules applying in international armed conflicts and the rules applying in non-international armed conflicts. I assume that there are indeed a number of universal rules of armed conflict which apply in both cases (eg intentionally targeting civilians is unlawful) but there are additional responsibilities that Israel has to comply with as an occupying power (as judged by the UN) but which Israel does not consider herself bound by.
Comment #108 October 23rd, 2023 at 10:16 pm
AI #107 I take “both” in this particular sentence to mean a union, not an intersection. If this is indeed the case, by definition, it cannot be narrower than any possible set of demands.
Comment #109 October 23rd, 2023 at 10:25 pm
Souciance #72,
The man who assassinated Rabin was not a “settler” as you’ve wrongly stated. He lived in Hertzelia, north to Tel Aviv. Other comments and observations you’ve made have similar inaccuracies and errors. The opinion that the assassination of PM Rabin has inflicted a blow to the peace process is incorrect. The peace process continued with Israel offering a Palestinian state for two times after the assassination, first in 2001 (PM Barak) and second in 2007/8 (PM Olmert), with the Palestinians rejecting it (understandably from their point of view, since the end goal of the Palestinian movement is not to form a state but first and foremost to dismantle Israel, and a recognized peace treaty with Israel jeopardizes this goal).
Comment #110 October 23rd, 2023 at 11:34 pm
AG #108, I disagree with this interpretation which is belied by the fact that Israel does not consider itself an occupying power in Gaza (in contravention of the UN). Why would it then decide to comply with its responsibilities as an occupying power? It would not.
Comment #111 October 24th, 2023 at 12:46 am
Dear Scott, thank you for sharing this. Your donation-retaliation to hate messages scheme brought a smile to my face.
Comment #112 October 24th, 2023 at 12:46 am
AI110 There are two kinds of armed conflicts: (1) international armed conflicts and (2) non-international armed conflicts.
As a matter of policy, Israel applies to its military operations in Gaza the rules of armed conflict governing (1) as well as (2).
Comment #113 October 24th, 2023 at 2:24 am
Hello,
I have a real problem believing that a guy as smart as you didn’t assume that your government is lying to you and that Hamas didn’t burn any Jewish or killed any child hostage.
Also do you think that one can just reclaim a land their “ancestor” once lived in 2000 year ago and start a war for it ?
In Islam It is absolutely Forbidden to kill any non fighting women/old male , or a child.
Jewish/christian have lived in Islamic land until 1900 without ever being persecuted. They were allowed to practice their faith and do commerce and live normally. Their possessions and money are protected. you cannot even kill the pig of your christian neighbor. ( it is allowed to do it if a Muslim is doing commerce with pigs and the killer will not be entitled to any damage ). Actually there is a really strong warning from Prophet Mohamed for any Muslim that hurts a Jewish/christian living in a Muslim society.
Yes Jewish/christian will pay a special tax because they are protected by Muslim Army and they are not permitted to enter the Army. Muslim don’t pay tax by they pay Zakat but this is another subject.
I am from Tunisia and i invite yo to see how Jewish lived in Tunisia for example , i also invite you to see how christian lived and still lives in Egypt today. compare that with how Palestenian Muslims lives today.
Comment #114 October 24th, 2023 at 7:18 am
I can identify with Avihai Brodutch. As someone who lives in a rich developed country, I live on the same side of the border as him sharing the same hopes and dreams. The only difference is the distance from the border to my house.
As a citizen living in a safe developed country, I have no reason to expect to be safe in a world where people are not safe. I can, and I am selfishly trying to protect myself by creating distance between me and the misery of the world. I’m kind to others because my environment allows me to be, but it comes with the luxury of ignoring those far away and keeping them away.
When we build our house next to the cesspool of misery should not feel surprised when the misery reaches us. We should feel surprised and thankful that ignoring it worked so long. Wall should be bigger and buffer zone wider.
I can’t identify, but I can understand people living in the other side. People living there must live and die by different rules. Prisons must have prison gangs. Nihilism and anger are how you survive from day to day. Humans are incredibly adaptable. We become savage animals when the conditions require it. Gaza Strip has truly unusual demographics. About half of Gaza’s population are under 18. , over 70% of the population is under 30. I find it hard to judge children and young adults who have born into those conditions.
Comment #115 October 24th, 2023 at 7:30 am
Muslim #113: So tell me, is my colleague Aharon Brodutch lying to me about his niece and nephews being kidnapped by Hamas, which has threatened to execute them along with the 200 other hostages? Is he part of the Zionist conspiracy too? Am I? What about all the Israelis I know on Facebook who were personally affected in one way or another and sharing photos of murdered children—also part of the conspiracy? What about Hamas’s founding charter, which you can surely read in the original Arabic and which calls for the murder of all Jews everywhere—forged by the Zionists?
There’s one true thing in your comment, and that’s that Jews were treated in Muslim lands, if not as equals, then generally much better than they were treated in Christian lands. (Until hundreds of thousands of them were expelled, their property appropriated, around the time Israel was founded—an event for which no one today says anything about a “right of return.”) I hope that someday you and all other Muslims will honor the long history of peaceful Muslim-Jewish coexistence by accepting the existence of a minuscule Jewish state—barely a speck on the map in the midst of the vast part of the earth conquered by your Prophet and his followers, but a speck that Jews have consistently considered their homeland for 3000 years, and where half the world’s Jews now in fact live.
Comment #116 October 24th, 2023 at 8:38 am
shtetl-fan
“I do hope, like Scott said, that all those politicians will get dumped asap… Although… the fact that they have been voted in for the past 20 years is a very discouraging sign.”
correct me if I’m wrong (this could all be a bunch of unfair stereotypes and generalizations), but I’ve heard that most Israeli Jewish Ultra-Orthodox (the bulk of the settlers infringing inch by inch into Palestinian territory?) are far-right, and, given the demographics of such communities (i.e. having as many kids as possible every generation), it’s only a matter of time before they represent the majority of the Israeli voting population, so there’s very little hope that the slide of Israel into far-right/extreme politics will ever reverse, it will just accelerate.
Comment #117 October 24th, 2023 at 8:49 am
“There’s one true thing in your comment, and that’s that Jews were treated in Muslim lands, if not as equals, then generally much better than they were treated in Christian lands. (Until hundreds of thousands of them were expelled, their property appropriated, around the time Israel was founded—an event for which no one today says anything about a “right of return.”) I hope that someday you and all other Muslims will honor the long history of peaceful Muslim-Jewish coexistence by accepting the existence of a minuscule Jewish state—barely a speck on the map in the midst of the vast part of the earth conquered by your Prophet and his followers, but a speck that Jews have consistently considered their homeland for 3000 years, and where half the world’s Jews now in fact live.”
Comment #115
I do not see this is a Jewish-Muslim conflict except for Al-Aqsa and occupation of parts of Jerusalem. However this is an Arab-Persian-Jewish conflict…which is kind of becoming more complex as years passes and newer generation emerges. Many younger Jews may not find Israel a priority whereas many younger Muslims do not see Palestine as a priority. On the other hand, there are many non Muslims and non Jews who take sides as well.
Jews were treated better in most of Muslim lands during much of Islamic history for good reasons: one thing is tolerance towards Abrahamic faiths and another thing is that Islamic emperors did not see Jews as a threat. During pan-Arabism, there was a concerted effort to promote anti-Jewish sentiments, but from my experience, they were a far cry from more sophisticated anti-Semitism that existed in Europe.
Comment #118 October 24th, 2023 at 9:07 am
Scott #115
“I hope that someday you and all other Muslims will honor the long history of peaceful Muslim-Jewish coexistence by accepting the existence of a minuscule Jewish state—barely a speck on the map in the midst of the vast part of the earth conquered by your Prophet and his followers, but a speck that Jews have consistently considered their homeland for 3000 years, and where half the world’s Jews now in fact live.”
“your Prophet”, that’s cute, because, after all (as per wikipedia):
“Muslims believe that the first prophet was also the first human being, Adam, created by God. Many of the revelations delivered by the 48 prophets in Judaism and many prophets of Christianity are mentioned as such in the Quran but usually with Arabic versions of their names; for example, the Jewish Elisha is called Alyasa’, Job is Ayyub, Jesus is ‘Isa, etc. The Torah given to Moses (Musa) is called Tawrat, the Psalms given to David (Dawud) is the Zabur, the Gospel given to Jesus is Injil.”
If not for tribalism, you’d think all those people (Jews, Christians, Muslims) should be able to get along just fine, and focus their “energy” on the abominable Zen Buddhists or something…
Comment #119 October 24th, 2023 at 10:54 am
Apparently some members of Hamas were Greek Orthodox.
Comment #120 October 24th, 2023 at 11:26 am
Muslim #113
From what you’ve written, I understand that you don’t know anything about your religion (the Quran) and the history of Islam, starting with Muhammad.
During the lifetime of Muhammad, he ordered 98 military raids. Particularly engaged in armed actions against Jewish Arab tribes, resulting in the seizure of their possessions, sheep, camels, as well as taking women and children. You can find details about these events in “Islamic History Encyclopedias.”
Before claiming that Muslims did not displace Jews from their holy places and did not prevent their return home, read a few history books (not state-sponsored propagandas). Moreover, investigate how much land Arabs sold for money in Ottoman-controlled Palestine.
Comment #121 October 24th, 2023 at 11:38 am
fred #116
You’re very wrong. First, the Israeli ultra-orthodox parties are neither right nor left. All they care about is sustaining their way of life. Given that, they were just as happy in Rabin’s coalition as they are in Bibi’s (and in turn, Rabin was just as willing to bend the rules for their sake, going as far aa actually passing a law which allows the Knesset to overrule the Supreme Court). Second, as a corollary, the ultra-orthodox and the settlers are essentialy entirely distinct groups.
Comment #122 October 24th, 2023 at 12:03 pm
“Identifying a Hamas command center” means doing GPS-triangulation of some dude on a street corner making a phone call.
Comment #123 October 24th, 2023 at 2:04 pm
“Some people like the Jews, and some do not. But no thoughtful man can deny the fact that they are, beyond any question, the most formidable and most remarkable race which has appeared in the world.”
-Winston Churchill, Zionism vs Bolshevism
Comment #124 October 24th, 2023 at 2:13 pm
Scott #82: Any inclination I had towards viewing the sentiment expressed in this comment as too alarmist was dispelled today by the UN Secretary General, who, in effect, blamed the October 7 massacre on Israel and denied the latter the right of response to a terrorist attack:
https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/speeches/2023-10-24/secretary-generals-remarks-the-security-council-the-middle-east%C2%A0
Comment #125 October 24th, 2023 at 3:36 pm
Vladimir #116
thanks.
Looks like the only thing that’s correct is the “explosive” growth of their population:
“In 2019, Haredim reached a population of almost 1,126,000; the next year, it reached 1,175,000 (12.6% of total population), and by the end of 2022, it reached 1,280,000, or 13.3% of total population. By 2030, the Haredi Jewish community is projected to make up 16% of the total population, and by 2065, a third of the Israeli population.”
But what it will mean in terms of Israel politics, I have no idea.
Comment #126 October 24th, 2023 at 3:49 pm
AG #124
“blamed the October 7 massacre on Israel”
They no longer teach f’ing basic reading comprehension in schools?
He’s clearly making an effort to not “blame” one side only, he’s pointing out some historical realities – sorry if you don’t like it, but *** breaking news *** the vast majority of people who are neither Israeli or Palestinian will agree, so you better get ready for it, or, after all, you’re free to ignore what the entire world is thinking as well:
“I have condemned unequivocally the horrifying and unprecedented 7 October acts of terror by Hamas in Israel.
Nothing can justify the deliberate killing, injuring and kidnapping of civilians – or the launching of rockets against civilian targets.
All hostages must be treated humanely and released immediately and without conditions. I respectfully note the presence among us of members of their families.
It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum.
The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing.
But the grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the appalling attacks by Hamas. And those appalling attacks cannot justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian people.
[…]
Even in this moment of grave and immediate danger, we cannot lose sight of the only realistic foundation for a true peace and stability: a two-State solution.
Israelis must see their legitimate needs for security materialized, and Palestinians must see their legitimate aspirations for an independent State realized, in line with United Nations resolutions, international law and previous agreements.”
Comment #127 October 24th, 2023 at 4:08 pm
Fred I never thought I would say this but your comments in this thread are by far my favorite 😉
Scott, your dialogue here is pretty disturbing to me. I have considered just never returning to this blog but you’re a smart and thoughtful guy and I think you are dealing with emotional trauma here. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on your morals not taking a full back seat to ‘eye for an eye’ politics… for now. If you are not careful with your support/reactions here I do fear you might just look back at your self now in the future and think ‘I really do not like how I acted’. Not the charity part… that part is fine probably 🙂
Comment #128 October 24th, 2023 at 4:23 pm
For those who are shocked by the suggestion that it just didn’t happen in a ‘vacuum’:
at a very minimum, besides putting it all on the “free will” of the Hamas terrorists, there seems to be a common opinion among experts that it was Netanyahu’s idea that letting Hamas fester in Gaza (rather than help push for a more viable reasonable alternative) would be a good long term strategy because it was a sure way to make sure Gaza would never get its shit together, for decades to come. That certainly didn’t work the way he thought, did it? (unless it was all 5D chess and he predicted this).
Anyway, it’s all cause and effect, and we can play that game all the way back to the initial conditions of the big bang.
What’s important is to break this endless cycle of misery, somehow (at this point is should be clear that it’s not working for anyone), and find a real long lasting solution. It’s the best way to honor all the ones who have and will die.
Comment #129 October 24th, 2023 at 4:42 pm
Nate #127: I am being attacked every hour (you don’t see all of it) by Holocaust deniers and believers in the blood libels and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, as well as “moderates” who merely think that Hamas was either justified in murdering 1400 Israelis or the murders didn’t actually happen, and that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth.
In response, I’ve continued to advocate unhinged, nutty ideas like neither side targeting civilians, and a two-state solution in which both sides live in peace and recognize the other’s right to exist.
So tell me, how should I do this better? Enlighten me with your superior wisdom.
Comment #130 October 24th, 2023 at 5:15 pm
WW1 started over a pretty limited dispute in a speck on the map.
So the even bigger issue here is that it wouldn’t take much for the conflict to escalate and bring about WW3.
To me it seems that Putin’s violent invasion of Ukraine gave a signal that brutal unilateral action was still the way to go in the 21st century: we have Azerbaijan’s sudden move on Armenia (seems like they’re just getting started), we have countless coups in Africa (Mali and Niger) backed by a strong anti West sentiment, etc.
With the push of Russia and China to create an alternative to the Western democracies, and their alignment with Iran and Syria, who knows where this could all end if the US gets involved directly again in the middle East.
Comment #131 October 24th, 2023 at 5:29 pm
I wasn’t trying to be condescending, Scott. I know you are trying to be a good person from how you respond to such attacks. My honest advice to you would be to ignore those people but I also know that is very difficult for you as it does not seem to be in your nature. Not that ignoring them will make them disappear or anything but it is an important defense mechanism to be able to focus your attention away from such stressors. I know, easier said than done and all that, but I do really worry about your mental health.
I don’t want you to take what I said about not coming to blog too negatively it just wasn’t helping me personally to see you reacting in such a way. In the end its not so much ‘what you are saying’ as ‘how you are saying it’ that concerns me. I really do think you want to see peace in the region and not just ‘destroy Palestine’ or something.
Anyways, not all that wise of words but I’m just hoping you can feel okay and not lose yourself in grief here. I really don’t mean to be condescending here but my only wisdom is that sometimes therapy can help. In my opinion you are very important to the future of the human species… or at least your brain is… no pressure 😉
Comment #132 October 24th, 2023 at 6:26 pm
Nate, you’re one of the ones that Scott should be ignoring. Your favorite poster Fred too. Getting sickening in here in a post about hostages who are still in danger watching the likes of you defending the UN sec gen equating Hamas and Israel.
Comment #133 October 24th, 2023 at 6:59 pm
I don’t think a two state solution will work well because any government elected by Palestinians will devolve into dictatorship and terrorist. The philosophy of all successful nation building was guaranteed (but somewhat limited) individual rights and aggressive economic development long before democracy. Ideally a competent Arab state like UAE would administrate a military occupation similar to the American occupation of Japan. Gaza is in a beautiful place with a massive coast, it should be a thriving resort paradise.
Comment #134 October 24th, 2023 at 7:06 pm
Sam Harris and Eric Weinstein discuss the crisis
Comment #135 October 24th, 2023 at 9:18 pm
Yes, Guterres acknowledged the act of aggression on Israel and condemned it. But his call for immediate ceasefire is tantamount to depriving Israel of the right to respond to this aggression. Denying Israel the right of self-defence was also the reason for the US vetoing the resolution put forward by Brazil, as was discussed earlier.
There is a lot of discussion about “proportionality of Israel’s response to terror attacks”. However what seems to be really at stake here is something more fundamental: the right of Israel to respond.
Comment #136 October 24th, 2023 at 10:48 pm
Adam, that is up to Scott to decide. If it helps him to ignore me then I really don’t care if he does. I don’t mind being ignored but I do mind silly trope spouting like you are doing saying a man who says something ‘did not happen in a vacuum’ is the same as him declaring Hamas and Israel equivalent. This is nonsensical and anti-reason. No one in this situation has an unassailable moral high ground from which to shout down all challenging opinions and trying to take that self righteous stance only makes you seem illogical to me.
If you read what I said I meant that I do not usually agree with Fred, but I find his attempt to use reason above rhetoric to be helpful in a discussion that is so emotionally charged. No offense Fred 🙂
Comment #137 October 24th, 2023 at 11:33 pm
AG, it seems like Israel has already done a lot of responding. They have been nonstop bombing Gaza and other areas since the attack. The US deployed the most advanced aircraft carrier in the world in support of their air defense. The only question at this point is the scope of that response. A ceasefire now does not stop them from having any response it stops them from sending in ground troops to try and eradicate Hamas and in the same sweep likely tens of thousands if not more civilians.
I can see the desire to eradicate Hamas as a logical step, but it will lead to its own atrocities. When those deaths and images begin to come to us if such an assault occurs then you and all those who have spoken so loudly in support of such a step are going to have to accept that it is the result of your desired ‘response’. Justify it however you want it is still going to cause sadness and chaos, and you will likely not feel real good about it. At least I would hope you will not.
I would prefer a more systemic approach that saw Israel give up on the singular assault and instead focus on longer term strikes at more isolated targets. Yea that may not be as retributive and it may not ‘eradicate Hamas’ any time soon but I am not OK with the cost that you seem to be saying is something we have to accept. I just don’t see it getting us anywhere but deeper into a cycle of killing and pain.
So yea I do want to see an immediate ceasefire. I would love to wake up in the morning to news of peace however temporary.
Comment #138 October 24th, 2023 at 11:49 pm
There are 3 questions, which are pertinent to the discussion, with the first one dominating it on the surface:
(1) Is Israel’s response proportionate?
(2) Does Israel have a right to respond?
(3) Does Israel have a right to exist?
I interpret Scott’s comment #82 as indicating that the negative answer to (3) renders the discussion pertaining to (1) and (2) moot.
Comment #139 October 25th, 2023 at 2:06 am
Comment #82 Scott:
Dear Dr. Aaronson,
I read your response yesterday and spent time deliberating on whether to continue this dialogue. Ultimately, my passion for constructive conversation and peaceful resolutions prevailed.
I must admit, I was somewhat taken aback by the questions you posed, not because of their content, but because I had hoped my previous messages conveyed a depth of understanding and empathy towards the pain and history of the Jewish people. The very questions you ask – regarding Hitler’s actions, the right of Jews to exist, and the existence of the State of Israel – are ones I have definitive stances on. Hitler was unequivocally wrong, Jews unquestionably have the right to exist, and Israel undeniably has a right to exist. The post-WW2 international laws around human rights were established precisely to ensure that such questions would never be deemed ‘two-sided’ again. Such foundational understanding is essential, and any actions that violate these laws threaten to erode it. This is why the State of Israel’s conduct towards Palestinians is of utmost importance. As a beacon for a people who have faced existential threats, Israel’s behavior sets a precedent. It must act as the ultimate guarantor, ensuring that such questions are never asked again – not for Jews, and indeed, not for any other people. When they can be asked for any one people under even the most righteous reason, we risk these questions being asked for all other people as well. As even my current concerns on how Israeli State will continue its response are ultimately for the future well-being of all people including Israeli civilians, I do not understand why I am seeing these questions. In any circumstance I find myself standing where they “cheer the slaughter”, any slaughter, I would stand right with you. The existence of such discourse should not undermine my concern for the direction your discourse may or may not be taking. In fact, any other time I would take offense that my concern for the expressions of a person I look up to and the existence of anti-Semitic discourse is somewhat associated in your mind. I would like to explain:
It pains me that I even feel the need to voice this out explicitly, but for clarity’s sake, I believe every human group has an inherent right to exist and thrive. My empathy doesn’t stem from abstract principles alone; it comes from real, visceral experiences. I am concerned for all oppressed and vulnerable groups. The soil from which I hail bears the tears and tragedies of Kurdish and Alevi today but also tragedies that were upon our Greek, Armenian, and Jewish neighbors by the totalitarian regimes. Particularly the suffering of the non-Muslim communities once enriched Kayseri, my hometown, and Istanbul, where I lived 10 years of my life, beyond the measures nonimaginable pains my heart immensely. So when it comes to Jewish history, I not only condemn the closer crimes of WW2 but also the ones committed in my own country of origin before and after it. And not only the ones I feel immediate contextual familiarity with: I also experienced a profound connection with Cordoba’s House of Sefarad when I visited it very recently, I felt for the Jews who got exiled from the Iberian Peninsula half a millennium ago and suffered all around Europe. We listened to the same music that filled Istanbul after Sefarad Jews arrived and the only reason I couldn’t accompany with Turkish lyrics to the song was how saddened I was by thinking of their fate afterward.
I am telling it not as just my case but as the case of a very tiny minority in Turkey. Above you said ‘Until hundreds of thousands of them were expelled, their property appropriated, around the time Israel was founded—an event for which no one today says anything about a “right of return.”‘ It’s essential to note that while a majority might be silent, there are voices in Turkey, including mine, that speak up and remember the tragedies of the past, the pogrom of 1955 for instance. Two years ago a new TV series that showed that era, The Club, came out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Club_(Turkish_TV_series)
“During the Second World War, Matilda belonged to a prominent business-minded family that was targeted by a discriminatory tax by ultranationalist Turks.” Even though there is now media representation of these events, we are still deemed traitors for saying it was not a bunch of bad apples but systemic oppression and state violence against minorities in Turkey. Only academic circles have some limited freedom to talk about it. And believe me, any discussion with an ultranationalist Turk is full of true crimes that are committed by non-Muslims and Kurdish people. Today, I also see the international Jewish community calling for a ceasefire and holding the State of Israel also to the accountability for universal principles. Maybe I feel closer to no one but them at this instance.
So you can understand it genuinely saddens me that in a world filled with anti-Semitic sentiments, my voice might be drowned out or misinterpreted. My intention was always to engage in a meaningful and respectful dialogue. To echo the sentiment of another concerned individual, Nate, it’s not so much ‘what you’re saying’ but ‘how you’re saying it’ that deeply affects me. I sincerely believe that you desire peace, not destruction. I cherish our shared aspirations for peace and justice, and while our perspectives may differ, it’s my hope that we can continue to engage in constructive conversations. Yet, as I fear that my voice to be confused for an anti-Semitic, I also fear, as Nate reported he does, that your voice might sound regrettable to you in the future. To refer to Nate one last time, it also isn’t helping me personally to see you reacting in such a way. I hope this conflict does not wound you for the remainder of the time and I can keep looking up to you.
Best regards,
Mert Gokduman
P.S.: While I may not be actively participating in the public discourse on this blog further, please know that my respect for your expertise and insights remains steadfast. My door remains open for any personal communication, and I genuinely hope our paths cross in more harmonious circumstances in the future.
Comment #140 October 25th, 2023 at 2:11 am
Scott #115 :
This is Hamas founding chart translated to English :
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
In no where Hamas calls to kill the Jews everywhere.
Also as i said killing “non fighting” children/women/elderly is wrong and is forbidden.
Hamas will not kill any hostage. i believe this is the propaganda of the Israel Army telling lies to their own people.
If children were killed it’s either ;
1- by accident in fighting zone for example :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWxC3I_GdP8
2 – or the fault of one single Hamas solider. But in no where this permitted by Hamas neither by Islam. This is an incident/mistake not an institutional crime ( like what Israel is doing ).
Another video showing that Hamas does not kill civilian :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD7NI0tGbp8
Jews can stay in this land and they can go to any other Islamic land if they wish. They are welcome.
But they should be always under Islamic governance. They cannot have political or military power.
It has always been like this and it worked for everybody. But Europeans decided to put them in charge in that land.
Why ? you might say , because if one does not believe in God & all prophets and does not believe in Islam as the last Message to man kind , he will not govern by Islam and he will make Muslim lives miserable/difficult (which is already happening even in Pseudo Muslim state where the people are Muslims and the government is not ). Because the goal/way of life of a believer is not the same and is incompatible with a non believer.
If they want a state you give them a small Land In Alaska or Canada that should not be very difficult.
You cannot claim a land you lived in 2000 year ago this is basic common sense.
xMuslim 120:
yes what you said is partly correct. Arab Jews were not attacked because they are Jews per se. Actually Jews lived In peace in Medina before betraying Muslims and that why they were attacked.
i invite you to see Daniel Haqiqatjou youtube channel which i believe contains many answer to many misrepresented facts that repelled Mulsims from Islam.
https://www.youtube.com/@MuslimSkeptic
Comment #141 October 25th, 2023 at 2:24 am
David Karger
Souciance #27 I agree that Hamas was supported by misguided Israeli policies but I don’t think that absolves them for responsibility for their choices. Yes, Israel arranged for tons of money to go to Hamas, but it was Hamas that decided to spend that money funding weapons instead of businesses. I also think that responsibility is a secondary consideration here; when the house is on fire you don’t ask why, you just fight the fire.
Yes, when your house is on fire, you put out the fire. What does mean? Doesn’t that mean securing your borders and getting international support for coming actions? When 911 happened, at least the Americans tried to gather international support and get NATO with them to Afghanistan. In this case, Israel does not seem at all interested in whatever the international community has to say. It went straight to bombing and now has resulted in thousands of Palestinian deaths. To what end? This is not putting out fire, this is just gonna cause an bigger future fire.
David Karger
Souciance #28 I’m not sure why you are blaming Israel for hiding evidence about the hospital bombing when it is Hamas that controls the territory where that evidence could be gathered. For some reason all traces of the weapon that did the damage have “melted away like salt” according to Hamas. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/22/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-hospital-evidence.html
I am saying Israel was quick to release sound recordings of Hamas. I agree Hamas are not reliant at all but if Israel has anything to absolve them they should send it to an independent verifier. But considering the IDF track record, this has never happened and never will. Numerous journalists have been killed and later it was deemed an “accident” or civilians and stamped as “collateral damage”. Just because you wear the IDF badge doesn’t absolve you from international laws and responsibilities.
David Karger
Souciance #50 “I hope the people of Israel come to some understanding that peace is better than perpetual war.” Note that this was by far the majority opinion in the 2000s (until it flipped after a wave of suicide bombings) and it is still the opinion of a *large* minority of Israelis. Who may take back power with the disgrace of Netanyahu.
If it was the opinion of a large majority, why are the likes of extreme right wing parties being voted in and likes of Netanyahu and similar fighting to gain power? There is a real vaccum in Israeli politics for something completely different.
Comment #142 October 25th, 2023 at 6:57 am
Adam Threat
“you defending the UN sec gen equating Hamas and Israel.”
Nope, it’s about equating the suffering of Gaza innocent civilians with the suffering of Israeli innocent civilians, and you know it.
Comment #143 October 25th, 2023 at 7:10 am
AG
“However what seems to be really at stake here is something more fundamental: the right of Israel to respond.”
Answer this:
when exactly did Israel lose its right to take preventive measures against Hamas?
It’s not like Hamas appeared out of thin air 3 weeks ago and has just revealed its agenda. Israel has known exactly, for decades, what Hamas wants, how they’re being financed (partially by Qatar, with agreement from Israel), where they’ve been hiding, and where they’d be coming from: a speck of an enclave surrounded by an Israeli-built wall supported by the latest tech and weaponry, as big and powerful as Israel wishes it to be.
Comment #144 October 25th, 2023 at 7:11 am
Dear Scott,
my heart goes out to Aharon and his family, as well as all other hostages separated from their loved ones. What Hamas perpetrates is inexcusable, and I am certain they will get their comeuppance.
I am baffled by your comments about the complicity of Polish people in the holocaust. Perhaps I am missing some critical parts of my country’s history, should that be the case please provide me with relevant information. From what I’ve learned, it seems to me that your judgment is wrong. There certainly were significant number of Polish collaborators, and people willing to sell out Jews to the Nazi occupiers, and the post 2nd World War pogroms in Poland (in 1945-1946) are forever a black mark on the history of Poland (and none of these things were hidden from my education in this country) regardless of how hard the (now former, yay!) ruling party would like to ignore this. However, as far as I know, there has been no significant collaboration from Poland to aid the holocaust, moreover Poles have aided Jews in Poland in huge numbers, as can be seen in the number of Righteous among Nations awarded to Poles. At great risks people like Witold Pilecki literally infiltrated Auschwitz and delivered a detailed report about the genocide perpetrated there (incidentally, his life is both a fascinating tale, and a tragic one; I recommend learning more). Żegota was an organisation specifically dedicated to helping Jews during the war. I think it is easy enough to read about all this (eg. using Wikipedia). If I am wrong, or missing some huge part of this history I will be forever grateful if you correct my view.
Stay strong, and all the best to you.
Comment #145 October 25th, 2023 at 7:51 am
“Getting sickening in here in a post about hostages who are still in danger”
Okay, forget the Palestinians, let’s talk about the hostage situation:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-16/ty-article/.premium/hostage-relatives-suspected-to-have-been-planted-in-meeting-with-pm-to-bolster-his-policy/0000018b-37af-dc99-a1db-3fefa6ed0000
“‘We need to stop this whiny behavior. We need to win the war,’ said unverified relatives who appeared at the meeting between the hostages’ families and the Israeli prime minister, and stirred an uproar amongst the others”
Then, apparently it appeared that this unverified relative has tied to the Netanyahu family and no known ties to the hostages…
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-24/ty-article/.premium/freed-hostages-remarks-were-seen-by-government-as-damaging-to-israeli-interests/0000018b-628c-d288-afef-f2dc7ad60000
Comment #146 October 25th, 2023 at 9:28 am
Many of these posts seem to adopt the following format-
Section 1-Express feelings of deep sadness concerning ancient pogroms
Section 2-Express feelings of deep sadness about the Holocaust
Section 3-Express feelings of deep sadness about Hamas’ latest attack (pointedly ignore that Hamas is the governing party of Gaza)
Section 4-propose that Israel is really to blame for Hamas’ actions
Section 5-Express the belief that Israel should conduct its affairs without regard for the reasonable expectation these attacks by Hamas will continue in the future.
Please, may the IDF be allowed by Israeli citizens and the Israeli government to accomplish the military objective of eradicating Hamas and eliminate the never ending drip by drip terrors against Israeli citizens.
Comment #147 October 25th, 2023 at 9:48 am
The tunnel network under Gaza is Hamas infrastructure associated purely with waging war on Israel. I have no idea how it will be destroyed. Likely the hostages (some or all) have been located there and clearing prepared tunnels by infantry is very difficult. Flooding is unsurvivable by hostages so the IDF has a huge tactical problem eradicating Hamas infrastructure directed toward terror on Israel
Comment #148 October 25th, 2023 at 10:04 am
Muslim #140: Right, I can’t see what in the Hamas charter Jews might be worried about, other than the part about the tree that cries out “O Muslim, a Jew is hiding behind me, come and kill him.”
Hundreds of Jewish children were murdered by Hamas two weeks ago—some shot in their own bedrooms, some burned alive. You can easily find photos if you look. That there’s already a movement to deny what happened, analogous to the Holocaust denial movement, is sickening.
Comment #149 October 25th, 2023 at 10:14 am
OhMyGoodness
dealing with Hamas and in particular their tunnel infrastructure is going to be very challenging.
The tunnels are very sophisticated, reinforced, etc.
The issue with tunnels is that it constitute an almost unlimited extension in a third dimension. On a scale of a 140 sq-miles territory, destroying or occupying the existing tunnels would not only be extremely difficult (it would be easy for Hamas to trap the IDF in the tunnels) but it wouldn’t help much preventing new tunnels from appearing.
E.g. this two-year-old video from Vice where they had access to the tunnels (trigger warning: it’s Vice, so it will be considered by many as “equating Hamas with the IDF”… but still interesting to see the reality of Hamas in Gaza)
Comment #150 October 25th, 2023 at 10:16 am
Everyone: I’m shutting down this thread, because the fact that, below a post about my colleague’s kidnapped family, I have to field these sorts of questions has been depressing me without end for days. I’m disgusted with the world, disgusted with humanity, and disgusted with blogging.
Comment #151 October 25th, 2023 at 10:16 am
Nate #137, AG #138,
It is a misnomer to talk about the ongoing war with Hamas as the Israeli “response” to the events of October 7. It is even more or a misnomer to talk about the “response” being disproportionate or not.
October 7 was a massacre that started a war between us (I’m writing from Israel) and Hamas. A massacre is not a terrorist attack and a war is not a response to that attack. They’re different things.
It has happened before, many times, that a terrorist attack came from Gaza and Israel would respond, perhaps by blowing up a terrorist target in Gaza. Sometimes that unfortunately came with civilian victims because Hamas is well-known to place its rocket launchers and stocks next to homes and playgrounds. Either way, people would talk about the proportionality of the response. And because the recent events still may look, if you don’t look too closely (and if you don’t live here) like part of the same pattern, people continue talking about the proportionality of the “response”. It’s easy and convenient to just see this as yet another “turn of the cycle of violence” or some such platitude.
But that’s not how it looks to us.
What is a terrorist attack? A way of shocking the state/public with violence to get them to agree to something we want, to get them to feel that their way of doing things doesn’t grant them the safety they think it does. Possibly also to blackmail them into doing something by threatening hostages. A terrorist attack is finite in scope by design. The terrorists choose the target and kill people to make a flashy point. A bus stop, a car, a school, a tower.
Oct 7 was different. 2500+ Hamas militants poured out of Gaza and just started indiscriminately massacring everyone in Israel they could get to (besides some hostages). It wasn’t finite in scope. If the army got to them 2 hours later than it did, maybe we’d have 1600 victims and not 1400; some more hours later we’d have 3000 victims, and there’s no upper bound in this that’s due to Hamas itself. In fact, what we didn’t realize until some days later was that Hamas arranged to place many better-armed, elite units on the roads leading to the near-Gaza region specifically to buy more time for the ones going around killing civilians so they could kill more civilians. This is one reason the army came so late, seven hours or more after the initial assault, filling Israelis with helpless rage and dismay on the afternoon of that Saturday. It wasn’t the incompetence and disorder in the army – well, some of the blame lies there, but certainly not all of it. Rather, initial IDF forces came streaming south after a few hours – and got wiped out or delayed by Hamas units much more numerous than anyone had suspected. Only the second wave, a few hours later, was able to overwhelm them and get near the kibbutzes and moshavs turned by Hamas into killing fields.
The goal of the killings was the killings. Taking hostages may have been designed to coerce us to do something for them (free the prisoners) but the killings were not designed to coerce us to do anything in particular. They just really really want to murder all of us and got a running start to do as much as they could, until we stopped them. Combine it with the fact that it was planned and executed by a state-level entity (even if Gaza is not officially a state). It wasn’t a terrorist attack. It was a massacre that started a war, a war we’re fighting for our lives and intend to end with complete destruction of the state-level entity that tried to massacre us.
This is felt very keenly by basically everyone here in Israel. And with a war, the rationale behind a comparison of “they killed 1400, you killed how many?” evaporates. That’s not how wars work. Discussing “a non-proportionate response to the Oct 7 incident” sounds like nonsense, because the Oct 7 started a war, not a “response”.
It’s like if you said in 1941, “well, the Japanese killed 2.5k Americans at Pearl Harbor, and now the countries are at war. But the US should watch it, because once the number of the civilian victims in Japan rises too much above 2.5k, maybe 25k or more, that’s no longer proportionate to the Pearl Harbor attack”.
The analogy is not great because at Pearl Harbor most deaths were military, but I hope the point is clear. This whole line of thinking is absurd. Now it doesn’t mean that it makes no sense to discuss civilian victims during the war. There’re laws of war, and there’s an idea of a disproportionate harm to civilians – but the lack of proportionality there is with respect to the military objectives, not the initial Pearl Harbor incident. You can still discuss whether firebombing Tokyo was necessary or too cruel, if you’d like; but comparing that to the Pearl Harbor deaths is just bizarrely nonsensical.
That’s where we are, except it’s worse, because Oct 7 was not a military operation – it was an indiscriminate massacre enabled by a military operation, and we have every reason to believe Hamas wants and aches to do more of those whenever it gets a chance. So we’re at war to destroy Hamas. We do absolutely get to be judged by how we treat civilians when Hamas uses them as shields, and if, for example, we were to level a city block w/o warning to take out a single Hamas terrorist and 10k civilians with him, I guess that would be a pretty clear violation of laws of war. So I’m not saying Israel should be given carte blanche with respect to civilians and of course I’m not saying anything horrible like “flatten Gaza and kill everyone”, and we’d never do it, obviously. But comparisons to the initial massacre in terms of the number of victims just completely miss the point of what’s going on.